From: "Jeneth J. Hawke" <[m--nk--n] at [greyhawke.net]> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Subject: Re: Useless Stats Take II: The GM Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:17:41 GMT >snip Wasp's reasons for his ruling on a 26 CHA< I'm going to bring up a few points to show you why I believe you're wrong, IMO and IME. I hope you don't mind, but I think you're having a conceptual problem with 3E's version of Charisma, exactly what a 26 CHA represents and how it interacts with an integrated skills system. This is causing one of your players to feel neglected. IMO and IME as a DM, he's justified in feeling this way. I don't want to flame you, but I would like to offer some constructive advice. In 3E, CHA represents the _force_ of your personality, not necessarily how positively likeable you are. Case in point: The Intimidation skill is CHA based and you can use it untrained. If you have a 26 CHA and regularly annoy people on purpose, you can automatically use this skill at a base level of '+8' with no ranks into it. If you, as the DM, actually make dice rolls for this character's annoying personality (as you probably should be doing when he interacts with others) he's going to be able to influence creatures with 8 or fewer hit dice on an average die roll. He'll influence creatures with 1HD or less on a roll of "3"! They may not react _positively_ to him, but they'll tell him things and do things for him just to get rid of him quickly. We're talking about a guy who makes people's skin crawl just by walking into a room here regardless of the player's roleplaying skills! This is how CHA works in 3E. You can have the world's most likeable Paladin with a 26 CHA and the world's scariest, despicable (sp?) villain with a 26 CHA. The only difference in the reactions they get is in the manner in which they go about getting them. The immediate end result will often be the same whether the Paladin uses Diplomacy or the villain uses Intimidation. CHA is force of personality, not necessarily force of likeable personality. A high CHA can be a positive or a negative force, but a 26 is still a 26! Regardless of this particular player's roleplaying ability, if his character has a 26 CHA and consistently and deliberately interacts with people in a negative manner, you need to take this into account. Have people react to him negatively because he's _grossly_ offensive. He's offensive well beyond what they're used to dealing with on a daily basis. They'll do things for him just to get him to go away and leave them alone! If he starts being nice to people and starts interacting with them positively, then you need to start making Diplomacy (which is also used untrained) checks for him to see how people react to him positively. Consider modifying the checks' DC's based on his past actions. You need to have a chat with your other players about this situation as well. Their characters should be influenced by this person's high CHA to some degree as well whether they want to be or not. If they aren't, they're not really roleplaying. If he's annoying, their annoyance with him needs to be played to an appropriate level. If he's mean, they should fear him. If he's nice to them, their desire to want to do nice things for him should be equally high. PC's and NPC's don't have to be slaves to this character's will (and shouldn't be), but you have to remember that we're talking about a CHA score that is well beyond what any normal 20th level character can acquire without substantial magical assistance. This person is well beyond the 'human norm' and he's going to be inadvertently exercising this all the time and people's reactions to him should reflect this appropriately. You have allowed this person to have a CHA score that matches that of a Great Wyrm Red Dragon. IMO, you need to allow him to exercise that CHA both positively _and_ negatively if you allowed the situation to develop in your campaign. You allowed him to create Sir Lancelot or Hannibal Lector depending on the way he chooses to use it. Don't penalize him for it now because you have some half-baked idea that he should have to be nice to people to get things done. You created a character with almost unresistable animal magnetism. It can be used to attract or to repel, but it's always going to be there. CHA can be a double-edged sword for DMs in 3E if you don't pay attention to what it actually does. You can have a 26 CHA and be the most whiney, snivelling, annoying, selfish bastard on the planet. You don't have to be nice just because you have a strong personality. You'll probably get better long-term results from niceties and sweet-talking than you will from threats and intimidation, but the immediate end result is often the same - you speak and people act because they want to please you, they fear displeasing you or they simply want to get rid of you as quickly as possible because you make their skin crawl. That's just my two copper's worth of insight, but I really do think you're short-changing this player horribly by not using his CHA. CHA isn't something you turn on and off at will. It's something that makes other people look up and notice you when you walk into a room. -JH