Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 20:33:19 -0600 (CST) From: "William W. Hughes" <[w--g--s] at [lonestar.utsa.edu]> Subject: Branch Davidian Trial Update - Thursday, 3 Feb 94 Branch Davidian Trial Update - Thursday, 3 Feb 94 [transcribed] Page 1A WITNESS CLAIMS 8 DEFENDANTS HAD GUNS IN HANDS By Diana R. Fuentes Express-News Staff Writer A former devout Branch Davidian "put a firearm in the hands" of eight of the 11 defendants during her testimony Wednesday, just as prosecutors promised on the opening day of the murder-conspiracy trial. But the prosecution's star witness, Kathryn Schroeder, also testified that gunfire tore into her bedroom window as she was helping her youngest son get dressed the morning of Feb. 28, and that she did not know federal agents were going to raid the Branch Davidian compound that day. Four agents of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Fire- arms were killed Feb. 28 as more than 75 agents tried to serve arrest and search warrants at the compound. The failed raid sparked a siege that lasted 51 days. Schroeder, 31, a short, slight woman with shoulder-length brown hair and bangs, smiled frequently as she saw her friends, the defendants, for the first time in months. Several smiled back at her, even as she identified them and told what weapons they had either during or after the gunbattle. Cross-examination of Schroeder was expected to begin Thursday. Schroeder said that after breakfast Feb. 28, the women were told to go to the church room in the compound. She said she later had reason to believe that, while the women were waiting in church, some of the men were loading ammunition into magazines in a differ- ent part of the compound. Finally, sect leader David Koresh came into the church, wear- ing a black vest and carrying an AK-47 rifle. "He said, 'Get back to your rooms and watch,'" Schroeder testified. On the way to her room on the first floor, she said, she saw defendant Livingstone Fagan, also wearing a black vest and carrying a gun. In her room, she told her four children to put their shoes on and get dressed. She said she looked out her window, although she didn't know what she was looking for. She said she saw two cattle trailers pull up. "A lot of men were jumping out (from the trailers) in dark suits, dark uniforms," she said. She didn't know who they were, she told prosecutor Ray Jahn, until they retreated more than two hours later and she saw the letters "ATF" on the backs of their jackets. "I saw men running up the front walk to the front door," she said. "I could see they had guns pointed... almost immediately, I heard shots." She said she couldn't tell where the first shot came from. Schroeder testified that she had no weapon at the time. "I was helping Jake finish dressing Bryan. Within another five or 10 seconds, shots came in my window," she said, adding that she didn't leave the room or even get up during the rest of the gunbat- tle. Schroeder said that, after the initial gunbattle, she took charge of ensuring everyone had a weapon and organizing ammunition. She said she went to the gun room after the initial gunbattle, but testified it had always been off limits to everyone but Koresh. She said that, during the siege, defendant Renos Avraam told her he was standing guard with a .50-caliber rifle. In addition to Fagan and Avraam, she identified six other defendants and the rifles they were using. The remaining three defendants were not at the compound Feb. 28. Schroeder testified that her children left the compound March 1. A few days later, she said, the sect planned a mass suicide. "We were all to come out, David on a stretcher the FBI had sent in, and (we would) fire and draw fire," she said in a low voice. There also was talk of alternate plans in case that didn't work out, she said, including one plan in which groups of people would blow themselves up with grenades. Those who didn't have a grenade or who couldn't bring themselves to take the final step would be shot by others, she said. "Neal gave me a grenade for the purpose of..." Schroeder said, pausing to blink back sudden tears, "blowing up the girls that were in the room with me." She said she was concerned that she might falter when the time came. "I discussed that with the girls, that what if I couldn't do it... they were reassuring me that I could," Schroeder said. But the suicide plans were aborted, she said. "We were told... that we had messed up, and God told David to wait, that if we had died then we would have gone to hell because of our sins," Schroeder testified. The sins, she said, were drinking liquor, smoking and "eating all kinds of junk food" after the raid. She said she smoked, and defendants Brad Branch and Kevin Whitecliff drank liquor. Her sin, she said, prompted her to leave the compound March 12. Schroeder was asked if the Branch Davidians created fully automatic weapons. "David Koresh during a Bible study made insinuations to that effect," she said. "He said... 'Were going to change a gun that goes ratta-tat to go ratta-tat-tat.' "'I want my SS guys to stick behind. We've got work to do.' We knew they were working on guns," Schroeder said, adding that the "SS guys" were those closest to Koresh. None of the defendants were named as "SS guys." Earlier Wednesday,a Texas Ranger testified that defendant Ruth Riddle had told him and another Ranger that during the raid she changed into her camouflage clothing and pulled out a rifle that she had hidden under her mattress. Texas Ranger George Turner also testified that she said she loaded the weapon and that she gave it to an unidentified man who asked to borrow it after his weapon jammed. There was no testimony that she ever fired the weapon. In an apparent attempt to show the extent of Koresh's influ- ence over his followers, Jahn asked about how Kathryn's marriage to Mike Schroeder came to be dissolved. "David had brought a 'new light' from California... not just the single women belong to him, but all women belonged to David," Schroeder said, adding in response to Jahn's questions that she "became his wife" not only spiritually but sexually. In the summer of 1991, there was a change in Koresh's teach- ings, and the sect members began practicing with firearms, she said. At one point, Koresh told the group: "If you can't kill for God, you can't die for God." ========================= ADMINISTRIVIA ========================= COMMENTS Well, the prosecution's star witness has disproved two of the State's contentions: 1. That the agents were clearly identifiable by insignia on their uniforms. "She didn't know who they were, she told prosecutor Ray Jahn, until they retreated more than two hours later and she saw the letters 'ATF' on the backs of their jackets." 2. That the agents did not use "spray and pray" firing tactics -- shots coming into the window of a room where a woman is dressing her children is hardly aimed fire; there is no valid target. Her testimony also indicates that the agents came in prepared to fire -- "I saw men running up the front walk to the front door. I could see they had guns pointed... almost immediately, I heard shots." If they are that ready to fire, then (in my opinion) the peaceful service of a warrant was not their intention. Having a weapon drawn may be prudent, but aiming it at your victim is defi- nitely provocative. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KNOWN DISTRIBUTIONS USENET: talk.politics.guns, alt.politics.org.batf, alt.conspiracy, alt.politics.usa.misc & alt.politics.libertarian - author USENET: info.firearms.politics/mailing list Firearms Politics ([firearms politics] at [ns1.rutgers.edu]) - author Other networks - BIX: tojerry/inquest - Paul L. Schauble ([p l s] at [shell.portal.com]) FIDONET: DEBATE - Terry Goodman ([terry goodman] at [support.com] / Terry Goodman 1:102/837) FIDONET: CONTROVERSY - Terry Goodman FIDONET: LEGAL (non-backbone) - Lester Garrett (1:125/101) FIDONET: SMOKER (non-backbone) - Bill Bauer (1:147/32) Prodigy: Politics-Other, Subject; A.T.F. Waco - Jim Bell SmartNet: POLIPHIL - Lester Garrett (FIDO 1:125/101) The Patrick Henry League - a gun rights BBS network: - Paul L. Schauble Please feel free to forward these updates to any other groups, conferences and networks that you feel may be interested. KNOWN ARCHIVES The Powder Keg BBS, 707-427-1310, 14.4, 24H7D, directory WACO (SurvNet/PRNet 176:100/24, sysop Peter Nesbitt) The Soapbox BBS. 919-387-1152, 14.4, 24H7D, file area BATF (FIDO 1:151/142, sysop Stacy Powers [[p--we--s] at [rock.concert.net]]) Full access on first call, supports FREQ, FREQ FILES to get a list of all available files Anonymous ftp teetot.acusd.edu in directory /pub/Beelzebub/Politics/The_Tax_Cops/Waco/Trial service provided by Jerry Stratton ([j--r--y] at [teetot.acusd.edu]) If anybody else is archiving these updates, and/or making them available for ftp, gopher, or other access, please let me know and I will include that information in further Administrivia sections. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This summary of the Branch Davidian trial is based on or tran- scribed from articles published in the San Antonio Express-News. The original articles, and any sections quoted herein are copy- righted by the Express-News. The remainder of the summary is copy- right 1994 by William W. Hughes. Copying of these summaries, either by hardcopy or electronic means, is authorized and encouraged, as long as this notice remains attached and intact. "I do not work for or represent the San Antonio Express-News" =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= [w--g--s] at [lonestar.utsa.edu] (William Hughes) | In memory of 85 un-charged, UTSA doesn't agree with me. They're wrong. | un-convicted victims of the U.S. St. Dismas' Infirmary for the Incurably | government in Waco, Texas - Informed [_Synners_, Pat Cadigan] | including over 20 children.