Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc From: [b 645 zaw] at [utarlg.uta.edu] (stephen) Subject: Mt Carmel and Faith // pt 1 of 3 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:41:00 GMT Transcript of phone conversation between myself and Livingstone Fagan from last Saturday evening, July 24th. LF is the spokesman David Koresh appointed to explain their faith to the public. As best I can tell, He is being held in jail by the federal authorities as a religious prisoner, and an example to others of the harassment and violence which will be used against those who don't bow down to the system. --- Beginning of Part 1 of 3 --- l: Mt Carmel is a situation right now where, we're not effectively here to call people to accept the truth which we possess. We're here to call people to make a decision. s: ok l: There's been a lot sensationalizing, and distorting the story about Mt Carmel. In a sense that's good, because it will capture the insincere in their own craftiness, which allows people to come to a decision. Which is just my point -- about .... s: May I point out something? l: Go ahead. s: It's very obvious to me when they [the authorities] bull-doze, burn, propagandize, and cover-up an issue -- it's being obscured -- it's being "fuzzied-up." l: Precisely. But at the same time, that you are able to... ahmm, see through all of that, and realize what the government is doing... there is a large class of personalities who don't want to know. s: That's right. l: In fact, irrespective of what God would do, to bring those individu- als, individual minds, to a knowledge of The Truth, they would still resist it, because they feel that -- "by remaining in an indecisive position... ahmm, they will hold God in a position where The World can not come to a conclusion, because God can not judge without people making a decision." They *must* be in a decisive position. s: ok l: So, ahmm... they will make a decision, whether they know it or not against Mt Carmel, because of the distortion and the sensationalized reporting. That has been a very prominent observation. s: Yes, in everybody I've encountered. l: That's right. So, ahh... the reporting itself is very much a part of the process -- the decision making process. Even though it's distorted, it's not something that will ultimately stop, if you understand my meaning. s: ok l:That's not to say I have no sympathy for people. But if individuals are not prepared to have sympathy for themselves, then it creates a rather difficult situation. s: Ok. Speak slowly and clearly please. l: Yes. It creates a rather difficult situation. So at this point, ahmm, decisions are being made, either for or against the truth that Mt Carmel *represents*. Of course, *we* have to experience the situation that we are experi- encing at present... s: Yes, I understand. l: ...which is not in itself intolerable. It's bearable, since we are seeing it in the light of the greater purposes of God, so that maybe you can understand and endure the process. Ahh, but what I desire for individuals who are sincere... (And I have received letters from many. I mean only this morning a person wrote to me expressing concern, ahmm, encouragement, and ahh, personal support. Which I found to be extremely, ahm, how shall I say... soothing.) s: Yeah, I'm sure. It's nice to get the feedback. l: That's right! s: But, at the same time I feel there's a strong desire to have a speeding up the process. So for their welfare, I've taken the opportu- nity to contact particular individuals of this group, in order to... to try and explain, and highlight the fact, that we have a genuine theolog- ical foundation for the position we hold. Ahm, I am naturally limited; rather, we are naturally limited, as far as we can go with that. Not that God is depending upon this in order to accomplish His purpose. I think, the world-wide media coverage of Mt Carmel has already accomplished that. It's just a matter of waiting for people to be fully decided in their own minds. s: ok l: So this is what we are dealing with at this time. The opportunity you afford me, to actually communicate over the fax and the computer net- works, ahm, some items of doctrine, like the last article I wrote, and there are some letters I have, that I would like to present to you... s: ok l: ...which may well benefit the sincere. Because, quite frankly I can only see that it's the sincere that would be operating along the lines that you're working along. You follow? s: Yes. You know why? The rest are hard-hearted, hard-headed... l: Precisely. s: ...and jaded... l: Exactly. s: The Apocalypse would not have been put in the language that it was put in... l: Uh huh. s: ...or it wouldn't be played out in the events it's going to be played out in, if it weren't for the fact that's what's going to have to happen, to get through to a lot of people. l: Ah, it's a sad situation. I wish it were not this way. s: And by the way it's something that comes from people having free will. l: And, nobody really, not even God can effectively overrun that. s: Nor *will* overrun it anyway... l: Exactly. s: ...as in the Promises of God. Go ahead. l: So eventually what we're going to see is that in the conclusion, *everyone* will acknowledge God's justice. s: We can cite Scripture, sure -- "Every knee shall bow," [Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10]. l: Right. So at this present moment in time, the issues as they relate to the process of salvation, has been clearly prevented. s: The "what" of salvation? l: The process. s: The process, go ahead. l: Ahmm, there is another area I would like to direct the attention of a lot of... or at least those individuals I have the opportunity to communicate with, and that's to deal with the issue of "present truth." I don't know whether you've had the opportunity to read an article by a guy called, Richard K. Hoskins, of "The Hoskins Report?" s: No. l: It would be very useful if you could, because I think he's done a very, very good job of "capturing" the psychological warfare that the United States government practiced upon us. And has been practicing through the medium of communications, the *public* medium of communica- tions, for at least the last 75 to 80 years. s: ok l: It's an extremely interesting article. It's entitled, "Chairman Mao and the Massacre in Waco," published on May 3rd, 1993. As I say, the editor's name is Richard Kelly Hoskins. s: Where was it published? l: Essentially it's his own publication, I haven't actually got it... give me a moment and I'll get you his address. s: I can probably find the publication from my... l: Right, he's the editor, it's called "The Hoskins Report." And the issue is May 3rd, 1993. I think it's number 224. s: ok l: There's another publication as well, by ahh, Project 93. I don't know if you've every come across that yet? s: Uhh, vaguely, go ahead. l: Well, what's so interesting about Project 93 is an article entitled "... ever wondered" (???), actually it's a booklet, and it's entitled, "Ever Wondered Why?" s: "As I wondered why" ?? l: "Ever Wondered Why?" s: "Ever Wondered Why?" l: Yeah and it covers developments in the financial arena as they relate to the United States, in it's alliance with the United Nations. It brings to view a very, very important development that's taking place at this moment, which correlates to events spoken of by the prophet, in Revelation 13 through chapter 17. I make reference to this simply because of the fact of ahmm, as I mentioned, the fact of Present Truth, which identifies where we are along the process of salvation. I find that this book by, ahm, Project 93, actually affords a beautiful grasp of the conceptual... the con- cepts... the conceptual background to understand those texts in Revela- tion 13 and 17. s: 13 & 17 ?? l: That's right. s: ok l: Which refers to, in chapter 17, remember the ahmm, 7th and 8th ahh, beast? [see Rev. 17:11] And in Revelation chapter 13 the two horned breast, and the image to the beast that was created? s: But you mentioned the 7th and the 8th beasts? l: That's right, in revelation chapter 17. s: ok l: Those issues are to do with Present Truth, and I would like to have been able to get in more depth into some of the symbolic language, which prior to my leaving Mt Carmel on March 23rd, I had spent some time with David, discussing. s: ok l: And I can see the reasons why, even more clearly now, as I see the developments taking place, in the international arena. s: Say again that last part. l: Yes. As I see the developments currently taking place in the interna- tional arena. s: In the international arena. l: I would like to be able to discuss those with you in detail. Ah, one of the things I want is that ah, the terms be accurate, but even in context it does not necessarily communicate the spirit behind the words that are written. s: Let's talk about that. l: That is very important. That is, it's because of The Spirit, that is through The Spirit, that one receives context the context, for what is written. You follow? s: Receives the context? l: Yeah. The Spirit illuminates the written word. And when I write a book, or when I write an article -- a person reads that in light of their own understanding. Do you follow? s: Yes. l: It is very difficult to try and separate one's own perceptions, and to try and grasp the perceptions and meanings behind the words, senten- ces and paragraphs, of the letter. Unfortunately it is very difficult to bridge that. There is that limitation in language, that makes it so dif- ficult to address that. s: That's because you can't speak with what we have available to us, which is the indwelling Spirit. [cf. John 16:13] l: Exactly. s: The requirement there is for The Groom, (The Husband), to do the speaking. l: Exactly. How does one deal with that? I really don't know other than direct... direct communication. As you can see, my present situation prevents that. So, the articles I write, the information that I transmit, is as limited as possible, yet is ahmm, I was going to say "as potent as possible," but that's very difficult to assess. s: Yes. l: So, what I hope is that (as I continue to write articles), my hope is that people will continue to respond with any question they feel may arise from those articles, and I can try it by first of all understand- ing the premise that they're coming from. PLEASE NOTE: Please, use the postal services, and I suggest short one page letters with sase included, or a phone number for a collect call. Livingstone is pre- sently imprisoned at McLennan County Jail, 510 Columbus, Waco, Tx. 76701 s: Livingstone, it would help to start out with the ah, simple "yes/no" [questions], that nobody seems willing to approach you with, for in- stance [concerning] the ah, what first and foremost must be on a lot of people's minds is: "Who is Jesus Christ to you?", "Was David Koresh the Messiah?" These types of questions. l: Alright. s: That is the way to catch their attention. l: Ok, I understand that, ah, that concept. The thing is,that even that presents it's own problems. Let me try to address that question that you ask as a ahm... means of identifying some of the problems. David Koresh being Christ. The first question I would be forced to ask you is what is your understanding of Christ? s: My understanding of Christ is the physical manifestation of God. l: Right, indeed that's true, God in the flesh. Ok. The physical mani- festation -- God in the Flesh. Part of that concept is of the Melchize- dek priesthood, that ahm, Paul sought to address, in the Hebrews. s: Yes. [Heb. 5-7] l: Which Psalms 110 develops. [and Genesis 14:18] s: Psalms 110, you say? l: 110 right. Which goes back to the time of Abraham. s: ok l: 2000 years ago there was also a manifestation of that same priesthood when Christ came into the earth. But as John the apostle pointed out, it was impossible for the darkened human mind to *comprehend* [cf. John 1:5] this reality, because Christ is really a principle, The Word of God, or God's thoughts expressed. s: Yes! l: And the problem here is that humanity, in it's dullness of percep- tion, finds it extremely difficult to appreciate or comprehend that. And that was demonstrated 2000 years ago which resulted in his death, which from my premise, having been a recipient of the knowledge contained in the 7-SEALS, I conclude the same thing occurred at Mt Carmel. So, when faced with an issue in respect to that question, I can only address it from the premise from which you come from. I can present something... s: Then let me help. l: Go ahead. s: In the sense, we know that from Revelation 19, that "The Marriage Supper of the Lamb" is referred to. The question is, "Who is being married?" We know in Revelation 19 that The Word of God is The Lamb. l: Precisely. s: So, who's the Church? The Church appears in Revelation 12. In other places in the New Testament, we know that the Church is made up of the Body of believers. Now here's a mystery -- the Head of the Church is Christ... l: Uh huh. s: ...however, Christ is also the First Born of that union. That union is between The Word and The Spirit, (elsewhere called The Comforter). l: Right. s: Now we are given in Acts, The Spirit, to indwell, as a gift, if we ask, by God. And it comes to us as "The Nurturer." l: Ok, ok. Let me hold that, let me hold that point. Let's develop that. s: Go for it. l: We are given that indwelling Spirit if we ask for it, ok. What is your perception of that indwelling Spirit in terms of, "when you ask for it." Most people identify it as some kind of feeling. s: Most do. They expect to get the tingles, or the shivers, or some sort of high. l: Exactly. But the truth about it is, that spirit was the Spirit that motivated Christ when he was upon the earth 2000 years ago. s: That spirit is... ?? l: The Spirit that was in the flesh 2000 years ago. s: ok l: Now that Spirit, in Luke chapter 23, when Christ was crucified, that Spirit was *commended* into the hands of The Father. [Luke 23:46] You follow? s: Yes! Into The Word. l: Into the... right. So, in Revelation chapter 4, when John gets taken to heaven... yes? He goes to heaven, a door is opened, he sees a judgement. He sees One who sat on the Throne. Now, the one that sat on the throne is surrounded by 24 elders. Now, in chapter 5 it highlights that in the right hand of the One who sat on the Throne -- is The Book -- sealed with 7 seals. This correlates with Luke when he said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." Telephone company recording: "ATTENTION, ONE MINUTE REMAINING." [Though LF calls me collect, the calls time out after 30 minutes --Sdt] s: You wanta call back? l: Yes. So, what we have there was that, that Spirit, which Christ sought to express -- which was rejected -- was commended into the hands of The Father. And then you go up to the [tape garbled, sounds like "sentry"] as John did, we see on the right hand -- the Book, Sealed with Seven Seals. So that Spirit is now written. Do you follow? s: The Spirit is now embodied in writing? l: Right. In written form -- The Book. s: The question is, "What is The Book?" Is it The Book of Life? l: [both talking, tape garbled] l: In Revelation 22, after The Lamb in chapter 6, begins to loose The Seals, it states that He's going to come to earth with that Book, sealed with 7 seals. That's His reward... s: ok l: ...to give to every man. This is where Mt Carmel came in, in that David Koresh was teaching the book. The question is, "What is the Book?" Well, in Revelation chapter ahh.... --- End of Part 1 of 3 ---