From: [p--t] at [rwing.UUCP] (Pat Myrto) Newsgroups: alt.politics.org.batf,alt.politics.reform Subject: Re: Initial Waco Chronology (Part 2/2) Date: 12 Oct 93 11:42:40 GMT [c d t] at [sw.stratus.com] (C. D. Tavares) writes: >> What was planned to be a 2-minute operation instead lasted 45 minutes. >> Four ATF agents were killed and 16 wounded. All four of the ATF >> casulaties and at least nine of the reported injuries were the result of >> accidental discharges, detonations and incidental friendly crossfire that >> principally came from three armed Texas National Guard helicopters. > >I'd be interested in some supporting documentation for this claim. >The autopsies of the dead agents are still sealed, as far as I know, >and I know of no statements from the government saying that they died >from friendly fire. The government has not even admitted that Cyclone >bullets were pulled out of the wounds of their agents who were only >wounded. This was mentioned in the SOF articles (normally a VERY pro-police periodical). For them to come out against the BATF is not too out of character, but for them to attack the FBI is extremely out of character. And, their articles on such subjects tend to have a good credibility level - the cites and references are always there, and the stuff I have independent knowlege of always checks out. A lot different than other periodicals. And they even had a special with photos, and technical data and explanations on the Cyclone load. Its not something one would confuse with anything else. If they got sources that say that Cyclone slugs were pulled out of dead BATmen, you can bet Cyclone slugs were pulled out of dead BATmen. No way in hell the BDs would have had that load, even with handloading - the load is too new, and while they could be approximated, they would not be exactly duplicated. Combine that with the footage of BATmen firing over barricades, while they kept their heads down, blindly in all directions, some using full auto, its a wonder there weren't MORE 'friendly fire' casualties. Fire discipline stunk. THe whole thing is a mix of allegations from various sides, apparantly to show the contrast. It makes it quite hard to follow. But a good list of cites would still be invaluable. The more, the better, especially if unrelated sources. I know many of the allegations are accurate, from seeing them myself on live TV, but I don't recall dates and times, or network. That info is badly needed to be added. Perhaps people can add what they remember, I have saved the post and will update it for my use (or for whoever wants a copy) if I get any additional cites.. Lets try to at least get a level of credibility to the various assertions made, ideally one which cannot be denied. I have no doubt the fire was not started by the BDs, not when I hear of things like acetone as a CS dispersant, not to mention CS not being especially benign, and other things... I tend to believe that an attitude existed among the FBI agents of settling some scores. They were tired. They were pissed. They felt they knew that BD bullets killed other officers (after all, brother officers told them so). SCORES TO SETTLE. Tired folk are easy to control, tend to not question things, and get to believe what is told them. Especially by trusted superiors. I also believe the BATF planned a nice romp for the cameras, and went in at LEAST not giving a damn how many people survived. They had a show ready... Any "tip-off" was a result of the BATF's eagerness to get all the cameras there for a GOOD show of their raw power, how nobody messes with or talks back to the big, bad, BATF. But the BD's didn't sit and play target, they didn't roll over as I think the BATF expected, knowing their past record of non-resistance. Of course, the previous people arresting them weren't trying to kill everyone like it appears the BATF was. But Howell/Koresh/whatever and/or his followers didn't wanna to play target. That is when it all turned to shit for the BATF (just like some KKK fun-n-games turned to shit when their targets shot back). Now, suddenly they didn't want the media getting all this. Time to move them so far away a tactical nuke wouldn't be a danger to them, for their safety, of course... problem was 'their' meant the BATF's backside... Would the BD's, Howell/Koresh in particular been ok now had they not resisted? I don't think so. With 20/20 hindsight, the children MIGHT have remained relatively intact, but the adults I think were pretty much planned to be dead meat. Prior BATF raids tend to suggest this, and the allegations are so prevalant. Not just for one or two, but nearly all raids on a controversial or unpopular target. Remarks like were caught on the open mike suggest that there was no intention to let them live on the part of the FBI, either, but to take them out as they tried to surrender, citing 'resisting arrest' as the reason. The snipers had taken out several unarmed people so far, and if a sniper can see well enough to place a bullet properly using his EXCELLENT quality scoped rifle, that sniper can see if the person is armed, and more important, is about to use a weapon (the only time a sniper is SUPPOSED to take out a subject, or so we are told). I have no idea what Reno truly believes and knew regarding Waco then, and now. But I do believe that she feels ANY method is OK to disarm a bunch of "religious nuts", as does Clinton and his crew. She hates guns, wishes they didn't exist, and wants to get them 'off the street'. She actually stated "I don't like 'em, wish they weren't around, and we got to get rid of them" (paraphrased) on a recent interview. SHe dodged questions about Waco, only referring to the usual demonizing references to these armed people. I find it especially callous to dedicate a Holocaust museum in the morning, and then have your troops cremate politically incorrect, (and yes, probably with a disgusting lifestyle) people alive. That makes it all OK, I guess. Yes, I am pretty much convinced the fire was started intentionally by our government, or they at least expected it with a very high probability. It got rid of some problems, and has the virtue of deniability. Note that had Randy Weaver been successfully killed, the case regarding the government actions would have been considerably different. There would not have even been any wrist-slapping, and the FBI/BATF would have come out as heros as they did in other cases of 'totalizing' a suspect. I haven't any idea as to HOW (government is obviously not gonna listen, its a done deal - no biggie as far as they are concerned, "religeous nuts owning guns" are regarded as having fewer rights than pre-civil war slaves), but this must not be allowed to be whitewashed and swept under the rug. Not Waco, not the other allegations against the BATF and FBI actions against those who DARE to question the supreme authority of the government. It *DOES* make one think a LOT of Germany prior to WWII. The lies, the propeganda, the demonizing, the tactics. The whole nine yards. The Administration is betting that nobody cares enough about a bunch of disgusting religeous kooks to go to the massive effort to get any justice with an un-cooperative and lying government stonewalling. Don't wanna pay income tax? DEATH by machinegun or fire. Don't wannna play target? DEATH " " " ". Non-payment of title II tax? DEATH " " " ". Expression of such views? DEATH " " " ". Sell a shotgun 1/8" too short? DEATH " " " ". Have a wierd religious belief? DEATH " " " ". Just want to be left alone? DEATH " " " ". Kill people of above category? HERO MEDAL and PROMOTION if coverup is good, if not so good, 'dismissal' with FAT lifelong pension. Or so it seems these days... I wonder how long the list of 'crimes' that involve disagreement with governmet meddling in ones life can result in excution 'inadvertantly' when trying to capture such a 'dangerous' person... This is a forboding suggestion of more (and worse) injustice to come. Remember, Clinton has ordered BATF to *INTENSIFY* their 'enforcement' efforts... Apparantly their action at Waco wasn't intense enough (the targets DID live longer than planned). Is this a diatribe? Probably. Its about all a commoner can do when one sees such abuse of power, and people refusing to believe such can happen here, AS IT IS HAPPENING BEFORE THEIR EYES. So much more comfortable to go into denial, and grasp at the straws that it is all a mistake, all false, that the conflicting stores told by government parrots are all the truth(tm). Better to evaluate what is going on harshly, than to deny it. And to hope and pray there is something the people can do about it. It may be too late allready... I am unable to express my feelings well about this since Waco (or even Weaver, for that matter). Just feeling frustration as I see people accepting this whitewash. Note that when a couple of cops abuse the rights of a person whose considered politically fashionable, they will be tried as many times as it takes to nail them. But the BDs aren't politically fashionable. Yet in both cases, the person has a less than great record, one a very violent record with convictions, the other one of being wierd, and allegations of behavior many find disgusting, but not PROVEN. But not especially violent. One is probably getting rich, the other can't even draw flies. Groups that monitor human rights abuses remain silent. OK to raise hell about So Africa, non-left leaning So American countries, Iraq, and occasionally a few unflattering words about China, but never, never, never say anything against Clinton's abuses, since they are against non-people. Wasn't there a status in the 1984 novel where a person could become a non-person and not even allowed a pretense of any rights? The ACLU? . Other civil rights groups? . Pretty disgusting, when I really think on it. And yes, I am upset over it, and will continue to be upset over this, if for no other reason because of the blatant hypocracy and violations of oaths of office it represents. -- [p--t] at [rwing.uucp] [Without prejudice UCC 1-207] (Pat Myrto) Seattle, WA If all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat WISDOM: "Travelling unarmed is like boating without a lifejacket". [Stop the Clipper/Capstone assault on privacy]