From: [PA 146008] at [utkvm1.utk.edu] (David Veal)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc,talk.religion.misc,soc.culture.usa,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: Bill of rights,& Waco mess
Date: 5 Mar 93 02:20:48 GMT

In article <[C 3 DnMn 4 rH] at [apollo.hp.com]> [nelson p] at [apollo.hp.com] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>In article <[1993 Mar 4 133129 11885] at [nntp.hut.fi]> [j k p] at [cs.HUT.FI] (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:
>>> Whether the religious group in particular was innocent to start with, they
>>> don't seem to be innocent now.  Four people are dead, and the preliminary
>>> reports are that they were killed by the religious group.  (This may turn
>>> out to be wrong, of course.)
>>
>>There is a CHANCE that these deaths are properly categorized as legal 
>>self-defense from an illegal assault.
>
>   I posted earlier that there was "no excuse" for shooting the federal
>   agents and several people sent me email saying the the agents shot
>   first, using concussion grenades.  So today I looked in the Boston
>   Globe's account and in yesterday's New York Times account of events
>   leading up the gunfight, but neither one mentioned who initiated 
>   the violence.  
>
>   Could someone please cite the source of the grenade story -- we have 
>   a pretty extensive library here so if it was in any major paper 
>   I can probably find the quote if someone would tell me where they
>   saw it.    (thanks in advance)

       Excerpts from an article in the Knoxville News-Sentinel
Final Edition Monday, March 1, 1993 (the byline is associated press):

	WACO, Texas -  Fierce gun battles erupted Sunday as more
than 100 law officers tried to arrest the leader of a heavily armed
religious cult.  At least four federal agents and two cult members
were reported killed.
[...]
	The gun battles began when federal agents hidden in livestock
trailers stormed the sect's head-quarters Sunday morning, witnesses
said.  The agents had warrants to search for guns and explosives and
to arrest Howell, said Les Stanford of the ATF in Washington.

[So apprently they did have an actual warrant for his arrest.]

[...]
	Witnesses said the law officers stormed the compound's main
home, throwing concussion grenades and screaming "Come out," while three
National Guard helicopters approached.  For a moment, there was no
response.  Then the shooting began.

-----

	So, apparently the BATF was there to 1) search the compound,
2) arrest Vernon Howell.  No mention was made about polygamy or
sexual abuse charges, although the article did mention that Howell
had been charged with murder after a previous "gun fight" (no details
were given to this could have been anything from one shot to a full
scale war) ended in the death of a "former leader."  The seven
followers also charged were acquitted and charges against Howell were
dismissed after a mistrial.  (It doesn't say why they wanted to arrest
Howell.  Maybe they got the charges re-instated.)

        BATF says the cult shot first, which is accurate according to the
witnesses, if you don't count the grenades, which they now deny existed.

        Still sounds like a mess.        

        It doesn't say one way or the other whether they identified
themselves, but even if they did I'd have to question whether they could
be heard over concussion grenades and three helicopters.
        
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal Univ. of Tenn. Div. of Cont. Education Info. Services Group
[PA 146008] at [utkvm1.utk.edu]  (Mail to [V--L] at [utkvm1.utk.edu] will bounce.)
"Of course the government and the newspapers lie.  But in a democracy,
they're not the _same_ lies."