From: [i--s--r] at [solomon.technet.sg] (Ed Ipser)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Nightline: September 11, 1998
Date: 12 Sep 1994 02:59:49 GMT

Nightline: September 11, 1998

SAWYER: Hello, I'm Tom Sawyer and this...is Nightline.

[Theme music]

Tonight we'll be covering today's tradegy in Garden City, Kansas where
agents of the ATF Police were ambushed and massacred while attempting to
serve a no-knock warrant on a suspected illegal arsenal.

[Begin clip: President Clinton stands at a podium in the press room of
the White House, the the Vice-President at his side. The camera zooms in
on his drawn face.]

CLINTON: Today, thirty-two police officers of the United States government
were brutally and ruthlessly murdered while in the sworn performance of
their lawful duty.

[Edit transition.]

CLINTON: I want to express my sincere condolances to the families of the
slain officers. I pledge to you that I will not rest until their killers
have been brought to justice.

[Edit transition.]

CLINTON: I want to send a clear an unambiguous message to the terrorists
out there: This is not Beirut. This is not Sarajevo. This is not Rome.
This is America. And we will crush you under the full weight of the United
States government. You have my word on that.

[End clip.]

SAWYER: In tonight's program we will be talking with Secretary of Defense
Janet Reno, the Clinton administration's point person on domestic terrorism.
Later we will be joined by Senate Majority Leader Phil Graham and
House Majority Leader Newt Gingrich. And we'll speak by satellite to
Colonel John Simpson, Army Retired and Professor Jerry White of the
New Freedom Front.

But first, we have an some exclusive footage from the scene of today's
attack. I want to warn our viewers, though, that the unedited clip you are
about to see is extremely graphic and may not be suitable for young children.

[Begin clip: a hand-held camera is being carried close to the ground behind
three croching and running men dressed in black. Across the backs of the men
is 'ATF Police'. Both the men and the camera stop at a low stone wall facing
a small, one-story brick house.]

VOICE 1: All teams report in.

VOICE 2 OVER RADIO: Red team, ready.

VOICE 3 OVER RADIO: Blue team, ready.

VOICE 4 OVER RADIO: Green team, ready.

VOICE 5 OVER RADIO: Yellow team, ready.

VOICE 1: All teams, ready. Blue team, go.

[Three figures race across the front yard carrying a pole. Other figures
take up positions behind the front porch. As the men carrying the pole
reach the front door, a loud crack breaks the silence and one man stumbles
and falls to the ground. Almost as quickly, the other two stumble and fall.
More shots punctuate the air.]

VOICE 1: Christ. Take cover. All teams, open fire...shit!

[The camera turns to show two men down, blood sprayed across the stone wall.
The camera pans eratically first left and then right and then falls to the
ground facing one of the men laying motionless against the wall.]

VOICE 1: Ambush, ambush. All teams fall back. I repeat...

[More shots ring out and then silence. The sound of approaching footsteps on
gravel grows steadily louder. The man in front of the camera opens his eyes
and holds up one arm weakly.]

VOICE 6: Please, no...please.

[A single shot strikes his chest and the man flinches and then lays
motionless again. The camera is picked up and panned across the front yard of th
e
house where other figures, wearing green fatigues are firing point blank
into the motionless bodies of the ATF agents, one shot per body. This done,
they sling their rifles and trot casually off in the direction they came.]

VOICE 7: They're going to need some more ATF guys.

[End clip.]

SAWYER: When we come back, Attorney General Janet Reno.

[Begin clip.]

LOCAL POLICEMAN: I want to know what the ATF 'Police' were doing in my
town. I didn't invite them in. Why aren't they back in DC cleaning up that
stinkhole of criminal vermin?

[End clip.]

[Commercial break.]

SAWYER: Welcome back to Nightline. With us now is Attorney General Janet
Reno. Ms. Reno, what happened today?

RENO: Well, first, I'd like to know where you got that video.

SAWYER: It's my understanding that it was sent to us by an anonymous source.
Perhaps someone within the ATF, itself.

RENO: That's not possible. Our agents didn't recover the tape. I think that
your viewers should be aware that you are airing material provided by the
terrorists.

SAWYER: Well, anyway, what happened?

RENO: An ATF task force was in the process of serving a warrant when it came
under fire from behind. As you saw in the video, they were ruthlessly
butchered in cold blood by the terrorists.

SAWYER: On what evidence was the warrent served?

RENO: We had an anonymous tip.

SAWYER: Like the tip you had in the previous ambush?

RENO: The ATF receives hundreds of tips on illegal arsenals every day. In
most cases, the warrants are served without incident. In this case, the
agents involved followed procedure to the letter.

SAWYER: Doesn't that imply that the procedures are flawed?

RENO: We are in the process of reviewing our operating procedures but I can
assure you that we will not cease our search for illegal arsenals and we
will continue to act on tips from Americans about private arsenals.

SAWYER: What is being done in response to today's tragedy.

RENO: The FBI with the full cooperation of the ATF Police is currently
investigating this latest incident. Evidence has been collected and it will
not be long before the terrorists are brought to justice.

SAWYER: This latest attack brings to 124 the number of slain ATF agents.
Isn't it about time for some concrete results from these investigations?
What leads are you currently following?

RENO: You know I can't comment on the specifics of an ongoing investigation.

SAWYER: Sources inside the FBI inform us that so far there are no solid
leads, that they have no idea who is behind these killings.

RENO: We all know who is behind them. The problem is collecting the evidence
necessary for a conviction.

SAWYER: These same sources tell us that there is a growing friction between
the FBI and the ATF over the enforcement of the administration's gun control
policies. The fact that so many ATF agents have been killed with no killings
of FBI agents...

RENO: That's simply absurd. Any suggestion that there is some sort of
division within this administration over policy is just absurd. It was the
FBI which helped turn the tide against the gun industry by pledging support
for gun control back in 1994.

SAWYER: Yes, but since that time, it has been consipcuously absent from the
War on Guns.

RENO: The FBI does not have jurisdiction over the enforcement of the
administration's gun control policies. The ATF does.

SAWYER: It has been suggested that your recent appointment to the Department
of Defense signals a change in strategy by the administration, that we will
soon see units of the United States Army serving these warrants.

RENO: I don't think that it is proper for me to comment on such wild
speculation. These reports are based upon nothing that this administration
has done or said but rather a desire on the part of certan subversive
elements to spread panic.

SAWYER: Even so, there have been reports that units of the Army are now
training for urban warfare...

RENO: It is standard policy for the United States Army to be prepared for
urban fighting given the nature of modern warfare.

SAWYER: Itsn't it unusual, though, for National Guard units to be called
up when there is no ongoing conflict or disaster.

RENO: These units were called into federal service as part of a new training
exercise. When the exercise is completed, they will be released.

SAWYER: We have to break for a a word from our sponsors right now but when
we return we will be joined by Senate Majority Leader Phil Graham and House
Majority Leader Newt Gingrich.

[Begin clip.]

SENATOR NORTH: Today's events are the natural consequence of this Democratic
administration's war on the American people. The ATF got exactly what it
deserved.

[End clip.]

[Commercial break.]

SAWYER: Welcome back. Senator Graham, what is the reaction of the
congressional leadership to this latest incident?

GRAHAM: Of course, we completely and uncategorically deplore this latest
tragedy. The question of this administration's policies should not be
resolved by force of arms. This is a democracy, after all.

SAWYER: There are those in the Senate who have voiced the opinion that this
was the proximate result of the administration's policies. They seem to
imply that these killings, if not justifiable, are in some sense
understandable. Senator North, as we heard just before the break, seems to
be of the opinion that it was President Clinton's policies which are killing
the ATF agents.

GRAHAM: I don't think that is precisely what Senator North said but in any
case his views are not the views of the majority of our party. But let me
just add that we wouldn't be sitting here today if the administration weren't
executing these laws...

RENO: The administration is enforcing the laws of the United States...

GRAHAM: If I may finish. Three times we have sent legislation to the
President to repeal the Gun Control Act of 1995. Three times it has been
vetoed. It is absurd for the administration to continue to claim that it
is just enforcing the law. These laws are wrong. They are ineffective.
And they are being abused. The ATF refuses to use them to bust gangs right
here in the capital. It prefers instead to hunt down American citizens who
have refused on principle to comply with the registration requirements.
Requirements which, by the way, are completely unconstitutional.

RENO: I think that it is totally irresponsible for the Senator to suggest as
he is now suggesting that these laws are somehow unconstitutional. That
question was resolved by the Supreme Court in 1996...

GRAHM: After the court was packed to include...

RENO: The additional of new justices was necessary to reduce the case load
and was completely legal as the Senator well knows.

GRAHAM: Look, Ms. Reno, Justices Mitchel and Babbit were hardly the most
neutral choices to review this law. Packing the court to overturn its
previous ruling on the Gun Control Act of 1995 was exactly the kind of power
politics that Americans have come to revile in this administration.

SAWYER: Are you suggesting that the federal government declare victory and
bring its troops home.

GRAHAM: I'm saying that we wouldn't be here today discussing these tragic
deaths if not for the misguided policies of this administration.

SAWYER: It sounds as if you are agreeing with Senator North.

GRAHAM: I don't think so. I think that these terrorists should be brought
to justice. Senator North seems to think that they should be pardoned.

RENO: This just rediculous. Federal agents are being murdered and we're
debating whether the killers should be pardoned or not.

SAWYER: We have to break for a commercial but first one quick question:
Congressman Gingrich, will there be another attempt to overide the
administration's veto of the repeal of the Gun Control Act of 1995?

GINGRICH: You can count on it.

[Begin clip.]

HOUSEWIFE: It was like a war zone. It's a miracle nobody was killed...I
mean nobody who lived in the neighborhood. It was terrible, awful. I just
don't understand what's happening to this country. There was blood
everywhere.

[End clip.]

[Commercial break.]

SAWYER: Congressman Gingrich, it's widely expected that the Republicans will
win the presidency in 2000. Will the Republicans repeal all, some, or none
of the gun control laws which have been enacted over the course of this
century in response to rising crime in America?

GINGRICH: The Republican Party, while not condoning the actions of these
terrorists, believes that these laws are wrong and misguided. One way or
another we intend to get them changed.

SAWYER: But will you repeal them all? Will you legalize semiautomatic guns,
for example.

GINGRICH: I don't think that this is the proper time to debate which laws
should be repealed and which should be refined. But clearly something is
wrong with these policies.

RENO: What is wrong is that we have terrorists killing agents of the United
States government and the other party talking surrender.

SAWYER: Congressman Gingrich, shouldn't the laws be strengthened given that
they are clearly not doing their job? Should we perhaps consider banning
sniper rifles as some groups are now suggesting?

GINGRICH: Well, that's exactly the kind of logic that got us into this mess
in the first place. What are sniper rifles?

SAWYER: I think, for instance, they are the kind of guns that were used to
kill the ATF agents today. High powered rifles with scopes and slings like
the ones we saw in the video.

GINGRICH: What you are describing is the standard hunting rifle. Do you
realize how many of those rifles are out there?

RENO: Enough to kill 124 federal agents.

GINGRICH: It's just not practical.

RENO: That's what the other party said about our ban on assault weapons and
the registration of weapons' arsenals.

GINGRICH: And where has that gotten us today? Are our streets safer? Is there
less crime in our cities? No. The fact is that the vast majority of gun
owners are resisting these laws and, anyway, they are not being used against
the truly violent criminals on our streets.

RENO: As a result of these laws, we have seized over 10,000 illegal arms in
the last two years.

GINGRICH: You know what this sounds like? It sounds like the Vietnam War
where the generals kept announcing victory based on body counts. The
administration claims success of the gun laws by counting guns seized
mostly from Americans with no prior criminal record.

RENO: Every gun that we get off the street is one less potential death.

SAWYER: Well, I'm afraid we are out of time. I want to thank Attorney General
Reno, Senator Graham and Congressman Gingrich for joining us tonight.
When we return, we'll talk to Colonel John Simpson, Army Retired and
Professor Jerry White of the New Freedom Front.

[Begin clip.]

ATF AGENT: We know who is behind these killings. I think that it is time
we cracked down on the NRA and its 6.8 million criminal members. We know
who they are. We know where they live. Let's go get them.

[End clip.]

[Commercial break.]

SAWYER: Welcome back. With us now is Colonel Simpson, Army Retired. Colonel
Simpson help to formulate Army doctrine on counter-insurgency warfare.
Colonel Simpson, based on the video we watched, what can you tell us about
these terrorists.

SIMPSON: Well, clearly they are professional. I would say they are probably
veterans of the Gulf War based on they way that they have been planning these
ambushes and carrying them out. In spite of what the administration might
be implying, these are not your ordinary gangs. They are efficient killers.

SAWYER: Why have they been so successful. Why hasn't the ATF been able to
take effective countermeasures?

SIMPSON: They have effectively seized upon the ATF's greatest weakness: its
zeal to enforce the Gun Control Act. The ATF is facing a great delimna,
either cease to act on anonymous tips or face occassional ambushes that
wipe out everyone involved. As we saw in Baxley, Georgia last summer, even
when the ATF has had a back-up team on call, the results have been the same.

SAWYER: Do you think that there could be an informant within the ATF?

SIMPSON: That's certainly possible but I don't think so. In any case, it is
unnecessary. I think that it is more probable that the informants are in the
very neighborhoods where the ambushes are taking place. All it takes is for
someone to watch how the ATF agents disperse their forces. They can then
direct the terrorists against them almost without fail.

SAWYER: Can the ATF not do anything?

SIPSON: Everyone likes to accuse the ATF of being incompetent but the fact is
that there is little they can do short of staying in their offices. The
very nature of their operations requires them to expose themselves to ambush
at the place of choosing by the terrorists. To put it simply, the ATF is
playing Russian roulette and when you play the game as much as the ATF is
playing it, your going to take some shots now and then.

SAWYER: What about these bombings of IRS offices. Do you think that there
is any connection with the ambushes of ATF agents?

SIMPSON: That's a tough question. Frankly, I don't know. The irony is that
the very agency which is supposed to investigate the bombings is the ATF.
There is every possibility that the killings of ATF agents are connected
but so far there is no evidence beyond that coincidence.

SAWYER: Is the US Army going to become involved.

SIMPSON: God, I hope not. I'm not sure, though, how reliable a partner the
Army is going to be in this war. There is a long-standing tradition within
the armed forces of not becoming involved in domestic disturbances. Certainly
the National Guard is not going to be any more effective than the ATF. And I
don't think that the Army is going to appreciate cleaning up after this
administration.

SAWYER: Is it possible that the National Guard units might be sent to replace
active Army units which could, in turn, be sent to back up the ATF.

SIMPSON: That is the scenario that is being discussed by the groups opposed
to the administration. That would certainly fit with the troop movements that
we have been seeing. But, again, I don't know whether it can work. As I said
before, it is not the failure of the ATF's tactics so much as the
administration's policies.

If, however, the Army units are used as a counter-ambush force on call by
the ATF agents, then that could even up these firefights. They might, for
example, be used to pursue the ambushers after the fact. But that would be
after the ATF agents had already been killed and would involve tracking a
force dispersing into the urban jungle. I just don't see any way for them
to be effectively employed short of simply throwing them into the front
line alongside the ATF agents.

SAWYER: When we return, we'll be joined by Professor White.

[Begin clip.]

HCI SPOKESMAN: Guns are killing Federal police officers in America. It's time
to ban all guns. It's time to ban the NRA. It's time to make this country
safe and governable once more.

[End clip.]

[Commercial break.]

SAWYER: With us now is Professor White of the New Freedom Front which
describes itself as a force for peaceful revolution. Professor White, just
what is it that these terrorists are trying to prove?

WHITE: First, I'd like to clarify to the viewers that the New Freedom Front
is in no way associated with the freedom fighters though we do sympathize
with their anger toward the ATF.

SAWYER: But you are in contact with them?

WHITE: They notify us after they take action. In this case, we heard from
them after we had already seen it on CNN.

SAWYER: What are they trying to accomplish?

WHITE: Simply put, they are raising the cost of enforcing the Gun Control Act
to prohibitive levels. The guns that the ATF has seized in the last two years
is insignificant in comparison to the number of guns out there. Ten times
more guns are being smuggled in each year from China alone than are being
seized by the ATF. And those aren't hunting rifles, those are fully
automatic AK-47s.

At the same time, the ATF has been decimated. The remaining agents are more
committed than ever to seeking revenge against gun owners but the flow of
new recruits has slowed to a trickle. And while the morale of the ATF is
artifically high right now, it's only a matter of time before they start
calling in sick and avoiding duty altogether.

SAWYER: Why only the ATF? Why haven't other law enforcement agencies been
targeted?

WHITE: I think that the answer to that question is that the ATF is at the
forefront of the the enforcement of the Gun Control Act. In spite of what
Ms. Reno has claimed, the FBI has studiously avoided enforcing these laws
letting the ATF take the brunt. Local law enforcement officers outside of
the big cities have refused to have anything to do either with these laws
or the ATF. The ATF is the administration's shock troops in this war and
they have few allies in the legitimate law agencies.

SAWYER: The terrorists' tactics are effective but what of the loss of life?
Surely you don't approve of that?

WHITE: I don't think that it is any secret that we regard the ATF as the
heirs to the Gestapo but even so, they are human beings. They have families.
I think that we should repeal these laws and end this bloodshed.

SAWYER: What about the bombings of IRS offices?

WHITE: I'm afraid I don't know anything about that. Though if there is any
agency of the federal government that is despised more than the ATF, it is
the IRS.

SAWYER: How do you think that the terrorists will react if the US Army is
brought into the war.

WHITE: I think that they will continue their tactics though with far greater
weight in their hearts.

SAWYER: I want to thank you and Colonel Simpson for being with us tonight.

SIMPSON: My pleasure.

SAWYER: Please join us tomorrow night when the topic will be Vice-President
Hillery Clinton's attempt to revive the Health Care debate by attacking
medical schools.

[Theme music.]

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______________________________________________________________________
          ** Tom Miller **        |"No man should be criticized for  
E-mail [t--l--r] at [umabnet.ab.umd.edu] | defending his rights"
Chief of Engineering, Md EMS Comm | Justice Robert G. Gillepsie