From: [JEFF 0974] at [aol.com]
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: NRA ILA / HCI online debate AOL 11/29/94
Date: 2 Dec 1994 18:37:30 -0500
RPTime : Good evening and welcome to you both!
RMAborn : Good Evening
Metaksa T : thank you, glad to be aboard
RPTime : Let's get right to our first question. Jeff0974 asks
Richard Aborn...
Question : Why is more gun control needed when liberalizing gun
carry permits DECREASES crime ????
RPTime : Richard?
RMAborn : Gun control has nothing to do with gun permits. Gun
control is an effort to reduce the number of ille
RMAborn : illegal guns in circulation and thereby reduce the
amount of gun violence in the nation. The issue of
RMAborn : whether or not it is prudent to carry a gun for self
defense is unrelated to the circumstances
RMAborn : under which hand guns are distributed.
RPTime : Tanya?
Metaksa T : "Gun control" is not about reducing the number of
illegally posserssed guns in circulation; rather,
Metaksa T : HCI'S EFFORTS FOCUS UPON REDUCING THE NUMBER OF
FIREARMS THAT HONEST GUN OWNERS MAY PURCHASE. AS
Metaksa T : for concealed carry laws, states with liberal,
favorable CCW laws have, overall, violent crime
Metaksa T : rates far lower than restrictive states; Florida's
homicide rate has declined 21% since adopting a
Metaksa T : favorable CCW law, while the U.S. rate increased 12%,
for example. Done, for a moment.
RPTime : Rebuttal, Mr. Aborn?
RMAborn : Florida's violent crime rate exceeds the national
average not with standing its "liberal" carry laws.
RMAborn : The number of hand gun homicides has only begun to
decrease in the last three years and by a very smal
RMAborn : number. In reality, Florida passed its CCW law in
1987, and for the three years after that hand gun
Metaksa T : Forthe record, only 30% OF FLORIDA'S violent crimes
involve firearms; again, the best measure is
RMAborn : homicides climbed. It wasn't until Florida passed a
waiting period that it's handgun homicide rate
RMAborn : began to decline and again, they are very small
numbers. The danger in CCW laws is that they give
Metaksa T : homicides, and its trend is downward. Richardd isn't
accounting for the other factors associated
Metaksa T : with violence, the social, economic, criminal justice
system, etc. factors at work in Florida.
Metaksa T : Done.
RMAborn : citizens a false sense of security. Although we may
feel that we are safer with a gun, the data
RMAborn : indicates that we are actually more at risk. Also,
do we really think that a heavily armed
RMAborn : citizenry, is a solution to violent crime?
RPTime : Our next question is from Phoenix, Arizona. DrCEC
asks:
Question : To HCI: How do you explain Dr. Kleck's study that
found that the safe, legal use of a
Question : firearm was used much more often to stop or prevent a
crime than it was to commit one?
RMAborn : I have trouble accepting Dr. Kleck's findings because
as I understand it his results
RMAborn : have been changed a number of times. Also, data from
other sources indicate that the
Metaksa T : Richard may find it hard to accept Prof. Kleck as an
authority on these issues, but the American
RMAborn : risk of injury in the home rises dramatically when a
gun is present and at the risk of homocide
Metaksa T : Society of Criminology awarded Kleck its 1993
Hindelang Award for his book "Point Blank," which
Metaksa T : destroys many of the myths promoted by Mr. Aborn's
group.
RMAborn : homicide increases threefold when a gun is present.
I find it curious that tonight we are not
Metaksa T : Claims that a firearm in the home are more likely to
bring harm upon family members than to be used
RMAborn : discussing gun control but rather the issue of the
prudence of having a gun for self defense. I am
RMAborn : happy to do that, but please keep in mind, this has
nothing to do with gun control.
Metaksa T : for self-defense have been refuted countless times
before. The most egregious of these, the infamous
Metaksa T : 43-to-1 overcounted family member killings by
counting suicides (85% of the "total") and
Metaksa T : undercounted self-defense firearms uses by counting
only those instances in which a total stranger was
Metaksa T : killed in a defender's home. As Kleck has
demonstrATED, ONLY 0.1% OF FIREARMS defensive uses
result
Metaksa T : 'in the fatal shooting of a criminal. The number of
defensive firearms uses far outnumber criminal use
Metaksa T : done
RPTime : Before we take the next audience question, perhaps
our panelists have a question for each other...
RPTime : Richard, you first.
RMAborn : Why is it that the NRA opposes every single gun
control measure that is proposed?
Metaksa T : Richard, I find it incredible, the repetitive,
underlying dishonesty in your claims. Not only do
Metaksa T : you continue to promote non-facts contrived in
various so-called "studies" rejected by responsible
Metaksa T : criminologists, but you even twist the numbers with
regard to the performance of Brady in its first
Metaksa T : days, In the Washington Post you claimed 33% of
haNNDGUN PURCHASE APPLICANTSA IN GEORGIA WERE
Metaksa T : "criminals," yet the BATF own report, from whicvh you
made your claims, specifically stated that
Metaksa T : persons non-approvbed were not necessarily
"criminals" but were temporarily non-approved for
RPTime : Tanya, you will have a chance to ask Richard a
question in a moment....
Metaksa T : vcaroius reasons. Such reasons include mistaken
identities and the like. My qwuestion is: Whay this
RPTime : Can you address his question? Does the NRA oppose
every gun control porposal?
Metaksa T : consaistent twisting opf the facts. The Amertican
people must be on to this, as they wholeheartedly
Metaksa T : rejected HCI supported candidates in the Nov. 8
elections, by a huge margin. On the other hand, 82%
Metaksa T : of NRA-supported congressional candidates were
elected. Done.
RPTime : Tanya, I don't believe you have answered Richard's
question...
RPTime : Then we will have him answer yours...
RPTime : Does the NRA indeed oppose EVERY gun control measure
proposed?
Metaksa T : NRA opposes HCI proposals that would restrict the
individual rightsd of honest Americans. The fact is,
Metaksa T : HCI's proposals are all aimed at law-abiding gun
owners; all have been tried one place or another, all
Metaksa T : have failed to reduce crime; all encroach on good
Americans' rights. Let's establish one fact - despit
Metaksa T : all the rhetoric, HCI is not about crime, its aBOUT
GUNS. HCI DOESN'T LIKE GUNS; DOESN'T LOIKE GUN OW
Metaksa T : CRIME IS ALMOST A TANGETAL ISSUE, OTHER THAN FOR ITS
POLITICVAL EXPEDIENCY. DONE
RPTime : Care to respond Richard?
Metaksa T : WHAT ABOUT ANSWERING OUR QUESTION?
RMAborn : The only proposals of HCI that have been tried are
the two that are now law--the Brady Law and the
RMAborn : ban on semi automatic assault weapons. The NRA
through everything they had in to trying to
RMAborn : stop both of this measures, and they were
unsuccessful. Nome of HCI's proposals were in any
RMAborn : way interfere with the ability of any law abiding
citizen to acquire a handgun. Although, we
RMAborn : would impose requirements such as licsencing and
registration in other related requirements.
RMAborn : This would not stop law abiding citizens. Gun
control to my way of thinking should
RMAborn : form one component of an overall crime control
stratedgy. That stratedgy should be composed of four
RMAborn : essential elements. I like to refer th them as the
four "P's"; prevention, process, policing, and
RMAborn : punishment. Gun control is an effort to prevent
crime from occuring or to at least
RMAborn : reduce the amount of morbidity and mortality
associated with violent crime. Additionally,
RPTime : Richard, I must cut you off...Tanya...your question
for Richard?
Metaksa T : First, NRA was successful in seeing Brady modified so
that HCI's waiting period will disappear in 5
RMAborn : long before the NRA even thought of the issue, HCI
was proposing stiff mandatory and even consecutive
Metaksa T : years... the semi-automatic firearm ban is an issue
not yet resolved, with judicial and legislative
RMAborn : sentencing for felons that commit crimes with guns.
It is naive to think that any single strategy
Metaksa T : efforts to overturn the ban under
consideration...Now, HCI's "Comprehensive Bill"
provided the
RMAborn : would work. The NRA with its much touted empahsis on
punishment would have us believe that we can
Metaksa T : framework for the so-called "Gun Violence Prevention
Act," a bill laden with registration, licensing
RMAborn : simply lock up for their lives any one who has
committed a crime. This simplistic approach
Metaksa T : limits on the number of guns a person pay purchase,
special licenses for gun collectors, etc. As
RMAborn : has already proven to be inadequate. We must expand
our concepts of crime
Metaksa T : mentioned, all the proposals contained in this bill
have been tried in various jurisdictions, each wit
RMAborn : policy to include things we have not tried before.
Clearly one of these things must be gun control.
Metaksa T : disatrous results, no effect on crime, except perhaps
to copntribute to it by disarming honest citizen
Metaksa T : citizens and encouraging criminals to attack with
thee knowledge that only they have firearms. And,
Metaksa T : Richard, you have not really answered my question,
not about the consistent twisting of facts. Done.
RPTime : We have heard lengthy speeches from each side...
RPTime : In the interest of fairness, I believe Tanya you are
still entitled to a direct question...
RPTime : for Richard. Do you mind rephrasing it for our
audience?
Metaksa T : With politicians and major media calling Nov. 8 a
victory for NRA -- read, defeat for the fringe
RPTime : A question, please..
Metaksa T : viewpoint espoused by HCI, how would you, Richard,
care to characterize the results? And please don't
Metaksa T : cite instances where pro-Second Amendment candidates
were defeated, but fail to mention that they
Metaksa T : were defeated by even moreso pro-Sedcond Amendment
candidates!
RPTime : Richard?
RMAborn : It is preposperous to label the results of the recent
election as a referendum on gun control. A
RMAborn : Republican tidal wave swept through the country. Not
a single Republican that voted for the ban
RMAborn : on assault weapons was defeated, not with standing
the efforts of the NRA. Additionally,
MRP55 : (2) Ho Ho Ho
Metaksa T : Preposterous, Richard? Consider Sen. Harris Wofford:
They (NRA members) and gun owners alone may
RPTime : Please give Richard a moment to answer, Tanya.
RMAborn : virtually all western Senators (traditionally thought
of gun country) who were targeted by the NRA
RMAborn : were re-elected. Gun control still enjoys enormous
RMAborn : support in the polls.
Metaksa T : have well made the difference in this elecrtion." AP
11-12-94. Or "Their (NRA's) grassroots effort is
Metaksa T : best. They're alive and well." Anti-gun Rep. Bill
Hughes 8-15-94. "Don't buck the NRA or you'll pay. A
Metaksa T : , for instance, Oklahoma's Dave McCurdy paid." Wm.
Raspberry 11-14-94. These are just a few, there
Metaksa T : are others. NRA had an 82% success rate in
Congressional elections, Richard, how did HCI do?
DOne.
Metaksa T : "Gun control" enjoys support in skewed polls, paid
for by anti-gun groups, or conducted by polling
RPTime : Let's take another audience question..
Metaksa T : groups with histories of producing anti-gun poll
results. The on;ly poll tha counts is the one that
Metaksa T : occurred Nov. 8. Let's go to another audience
question. Done.
Question : What good does an "Assault Ban" realy do, and why
magazine limits?
RPTime : That's from LarryK5907..
RPTime : Richard? you first.
RMAborn : We believe that the assault weapon ban will be
effective in reducing the number
RMAborn : of shootings that occur with these weapons over the
next few years just as the
RMAborn : ban on the importation of these weapons signed by
President Bush in 1989 was effective.
RMAborn : We have pushed for a limitation on magazine capacity
to ten rounds which
RMAborn : by the way is now law, because there is no need for a
law abiding citizen to be armed with
Metaksa T : HCI may believe the ban will reduce criminal uses of
firearms so-named, but there are so few that
RMAborn : more than ten rounds and that part in the increase in
gun violence in the country in the past
Metaksa T : involvre those firearms that it may be difficult to
compute the trend. The import ban succeeded in
RMAborn : few years has been as a result of individuals
carrying and using magazines of fifteen to thirty
Metaksa T : doing nothing except raising the price of firearms
restricte4d. What few criminals may have otherwise
RMAborn : rounds. The magazine limit will reduce some of the
fire power available to the criminal element.
Metaksa T : used an "assault weapon" simply switched to other
firearms. In any case, we are talking about less
RPTime : Tanya I think it's fair to say that assault weapon
ownership....
Metaksa T : than 1% of homicides, for example, involving those
firearms, a fact generally admitted by the Washingt
RPTime : Is one of the more puzzling aspects of gun ownership
to non-gun owners...
Metaksa T : Post AND WALL STGREET JOURNAL AROUND THE TIME of the
ban's passage. By the way Richard, when you
Metaksa T : testified before New York State legisltors in 1991,
you called for a ban on magazines over 6 rounds
RPTime : Why the opposition to their control?
Metaksa T : capacity, and requiring current owners to hand
existing magazines over to police. Any comment?
Metaksa T : To answer the "assault weapons" question, NRA opposed
their restriction because, first, of the
AngelaZ123 : (2) (2) To turn mag over to the police including guns
is a serious violation of our rights
Metaksa T : individual right of honest citizens to own the
firearms of their choice; second, our general belief
Metaksa T : that you should not blame honest citizens for the
acts of criminasls; third, that few criminals used
Metaksa T : so-called "assault weapons," and the fact that no
restriction on any class of firearm, however
Metaksa T : arbitrarily defined, will change criminal behavior,
encourage the criminal justice system to do a
Metaksa T : better job of restraining and deterring criminals,
nor can it prevent any criminal from acquiring
Metaksa T : whatever firearm he or she chooses. Of course, again,
the issue really isn't about crime from HCI's
Metaksa T : standpoint; it is about politicvs, and engendering
some degree of momentum for what it hopes,
Metaksa T : in delusion, will be aq never-ending erosion of civil
liberties and the traditional freedoms enjoyed
RPTime : Thank you Tanya...Your response, Richard?
Metaksa T : by the American people over the last 200 years and
more. Done.
RMAborn : One of the basic freedoms that we would like to
protect is the freedom from fear.
RMAborn : When we lock ourselves behind closed doors at night
afaid to walk our streets, or when we are afraid
RMAborn : to send our children to school unaccompanied or to
enjoy our parks we are hardly enjoying freedom.
RMAborn : We simply seek to reduce the amount of gun violence
that plagues this nation. No more. No less. Such
RPTime : In the few minutes we have left, let me ask you both
a question. Tanya first, then Richard...
RMAborn : an effort will only enhance all freedoms.
RPTime : Is there any aspect of the gun control debate,
however broadly defined...
RPTime : that you feel you can support the other's position
on?
RPTime : Tanya?
Metaksa T : Whn, if ever, HCI is ready to recognize that crime
begins with the criminal, and stand with NRA in
Metaksa T : support of meaningful enforcement of firearms misuse
prohibitions, such as requiring persons convicted
Metaksa T : of using guns in crime to serve at least 85% of their
sentences, we can talk. But nothing HCI has
Metaksa T : done, including its support of the phony Clinton
crime bill, has put the brakes on criminal activity.
RPTime : I will take it, the answer to my question, then, from
the NRA's standpoint, is "no." Richard?
Metaksa T : Take the differnce in approach between Maryland and
Virginia. Maryland's approach is the gun control
Metaksa T : approach, Virginia;'s is a touigher criminal justice
syste. Any bets on whose crime trends will be bes
RPTime : Please let Richard answer first, Tanya..
RMAborn : We agree with the NRA's historic emphasis on gun
safety training and hope that the NRA will support
Metaksa T : after a few years? Done.
RMAborn : our call for mandatory safety training.
RPTime : Any brief -- and I emphasize -- BRIEF final comments?
RPTime : Tanya?
JEFF0974 : (2) TO PERSONS WHO ARE "CONNECTED"
Metaksa T : "The National Rifle Associaztion rebounded with a
vengeance Tuesday when at least a dozen of the gun
Metaksa T : control supporters in Congress it had targeted were
defeated by candidates who oppose weapons
Metaksa T : restrictions." Hearst News Service, Portland, OR.
RPTime : Richard..last words?
RMAborn : Not with standing, the "NRA's Rebound with a
vengeance," there is no effort in new Congress
RMAborn : to repeal either Brady or the ban assault weapons.
If in reality the NRA had had the enormous
RMAborn : victory it claims, we would have seen such an effort.
The fact is the Republican party understand
RMAborn : that the American people support both of these
measures and they will remain the law of the land.
RMAborn : Thank you.
RPTime : Thank you both for being here and being such good
sports. I hope we can continue this another...
RPTime : evening.
RPTime : And TIME Online's year-long debate on this very issue
continues...
Metaksa T : Thanks to Richard for pointing out that NRA has
launched no effort to repeal various gun laws in
RPTime : in the message boards. See "TIME's Anti-Gun Bias" to
post your comments.
OnlineHost : Thank you for coming! A complete transcript of
: tonight's TIME Online press conference will be posted
: shortly. For a further discussion of this and other
: issues, check out the TIME Online message boards.
Metaksa T : the 104th Congress, which has not even been sworn in.
When 1995 comes, Richard, we'll review this
Metaksa T : aspect of tonight's debate. Done.
RPTime : Thank you again...and goodnight.