From: [JEFF 0974] at [aol.com] Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: NRA ILA / HCI online debate AOL 11/29/94 Date: 2 Dec 1994 18:37:30 -0500 RPTime : Good evening and welcome to you both! RMAborn : Good Evening Metaksa T : thank you, glad to be aboard RPTime : Let's get right to our first question. Jeff0974 asks Richard Aborn... Question : Why is more gun control needed when liberalizing gun carry permits DECREASES crime ???? RPTime : Richard? RMAborn : Gun control has nothing to do with gun permits. Gun control is an effort to reduce the number of ille RMAborn : illegal guns in circulation and thereby reduce the amount of gun violence in the nation. The issue of RMAborn : whether or not it is prudent to carry a gun for self defense is unrelated to the circumstances RMAborn : under which hand guns are distributed. RPTime : Tanya? Metaksa T : "Gun control" is not about reducing the number of illegally posserssed guns in circulation; rather, Metaksa T : HCI'S EFFORTS FOCUS UPON REDUCING THE NUMBER OF FIREARMS THAT HONEST GUN OWNERS MAY PURCHASE. AS Metaksa T : for concealed carry laws, states with liberal, favorable CCW laws have, overall, violent crime Metaksa T : rates far lower than restrictive states; Florida's homicide rate has declined 21% since adopting a Metaksa T : favorable CCW law, while the U.S. rate increased 12%, for example. Done, for a moment. RPTime : Rebuttal, Mr. Aborn? RMAborn : Florida's violent crime rate exceeds the national average not with standing its "liberal" carry laws. RMAborn : The number of hand gun homicides has only begun to decrease in the last three years and by a very smal RMAborn : number. In reality, Florida passed its CCW law in 1987, and for the three years after that hand gun Metaksa T : Forthe record, only 30% OF FLORIDA'S violent crimes involve firearms; again, the best measure is RMAborn : homicides climbed. It wasn't until Florida passed a waiting period that it's handgun homicide rate RMAborn : began to decline and again, they are very small numbers. The danger in CCW laws is that they give Metaksa T : homicides, and its trend is downward. Richardd isn't accounting for the other factors associated Metaksa T : with violence, the social, economic, criminal justice system, etc. factors at work in Florida. Metaksa T : Done. RMAborn : citizens a false sense of security. Although we may feel that we are safer with a gun, the data RMAborn : indicates that we are actually more at risk. Also, do we really think that a heavily armed RMAborn : citizenry, is a solution to violent crime? RPTime : Our next question is from Phoenix, Arizona. DrCEC asks: Question : To HCI: How do you explain Dr. Kleck's study that found that the safe, legal use of a Question : firearm was used much more often to stop or prevent a crime than it was to commit one? RMAborn : I have trouble accepting Dr. Kleck's findings because as I understand it his results RMAborn : have been changed a number of times. Also, data from other sources indicate that the Metaksa T : Richard may find it hard to accept Prof. Kleck as an authority on these issues, but the American RMAborn : risk of injury in the home rises dramatically when a gun is present and at the risk of homocide Metaksa T : Society of Criminology awarded Kleck its 1993 Hindelang Award for his book "Point Blank," which Metaksa T : destroys many of the myths promoted by Mr. Aborn's group. RMAborn : homicide increases threefold when a gun is present. I find it curious that tonight we are not Metaksa T : Claims that a firearm in the home are more likely to bring harm upon family members than to be used RMAborn : discussing gun control but rather the issue of the prudence of having a gun for self defense. I am RMAborn : happy to do that, but please keep in mind, this has nothing to do with gun control. Metaksa T : for self-defense have been refuted countless times before. The most egregious of these, the infamous Metaksa T : 43-to-1 overcounted family member killings by counting suicides (85% of the "total") and Metaksa T : undercounted self-defense firearms uses by counting only those instances in which a total stranger was Metaksa T : killed in a defender's home. As Kleck has demonstrATED, ONLY 0.1% OF FIREARMS defensive uses result Metaksa T : 'in the fatal shooting of a criminal. The number of defensive firearms uses far outnumber criminal use Metaksa T : done RPTime : Before we take the next audience question, perhaps our panelists have a question for each other... RPTime : Richard, you first. RMAborn : Why is it that the NRA opposes every single gun control measure that is proposed? Metaksa T : Richard, I find it incredible, the repetitive, underlying dishonesty in your claims. Not only do Metaksa T : you continue to promote non-facts contrived in various so-called "studies" rejected by responsible Metaksa T : criminologists, but you even twist the numbers with regard to the performance of Brady in its first Metaksa T : days, In the Washington Post you claimed 33% of haNNDGUN PURCHASE APPLICANTSA IN GEORGIA WERE Metaksa T : "criminals," yet the BATF own report, from whicvh you made your claims, specifically stated that Metaksa T : persons non-approvbed were not necessarily "criminals" but were temporarily non-approved for RPTime : Tanya, you will have a chance to ask Richard a question in a moment.... Metaksa T : vcaroius reasons. Such reasons include mistaken identities and the like. My qwuestion is: Whay this RPTime : Can you address his question? Does the NRA oppose every gun control porposal? Metaksa T : consaistent twisting opf the facts. The Amertican people must be on to this, as they wholeheartedly Metaksa T : rejected HCI supported candidates in the Nov. 8 elections, by a huge margin. On the other hand, 82% Metaksa T : of NRA-supported congressional candidates were elected. Done. RPTime : Tanya, I don't believe you have answered Richard's question... RPTime : Then we will have him answer yours... RPTime : Does the NRA indeed oppose EVERY gun control measure proposed? Metaksa T : NRA opposes HCI proposals that would restrict the individual rightsd of honest Americans. The fact is, Metaksa T : HCI's proposals are all aimed at law-abiding gun owners; all have been tried one place or another, all Metaksa T : have failed to reduce crime; all encroach on good Americans' rights. Let's establish one fact - despit Metaksa T : all the rhetoric, HCI is not about crime, its aBOUT GUNS. HCI DOESN'T LIKE GUNS; DOESN'T LOIKE GUN OW Metaksa T : CRIME IS ALMOST A TANGETAL ISSUE, OTHER THAN FOR ITS POLITICVAL EXPEDIENCY. DONE RPTime : Care to respond Richard? Metaksa T : WHAT ABOUT ANSWERING OUR QUESTION? RMAborn : The only proposals of HCI that have been tried are the two that are now law--the Brady Law and the RMAborn : ban on semi automatic assault weapons. The NRA through everything they had in to trying to RMAborn : stop both of this measures, and they were unsuccessful. Nome of HCI's proposals were in any RMAborn : way interfere with the ability of any law abiding citizen to acquire a handgun. Although, we RMAborn : would impose requirements such as licsencing and registration in other related requirements. RMAborn : This would not stop law abiding citizens. Gun control to my way of thinking should RMAborn : form one component of an overall crime control stratedgy. That stratedgy should be composed of four RMAborn : essential elements. I like to refer th them as the four "P's"; prevention, process, policing, and RMAborn : punishment. Gun control is an effort to prevent crime from occuring or to at least RMAborn : reduce the amount of morbidity and mortality associated with violent crime. Additionally, RPTime : Richard, I must cut you off...Tanya...your question for Richard? Metaksa T : First, NRA was successful in seeing Brady modified so that HCI's waiting period will disappear in 5 RMAborn : long before the NRA even thought of the issue, HCI was proposing stiff mandatory and even consecutive Metaksa T : years... the semi-automatic firearm ban is an issue not yet resolved, with judicial and legislative RMAborn : sentencing for felons that commit crimes with guns. It is naive to think that any single strategy Metaksa T : efforts to overturn the ban under consideration...Now, HCI's "Comprehensive Bill" provided the RMAborn : would work. The NRA with its much touted empahsis on punishment would have us believe that we can Metaksa T : framework for the so-called "Gun Violence Prevention Act," a bill laden with registration, licensing RMAborn : simply lock up for their lives any one who has committed a crime. This simplistic approach Metaksa T : limits on the number of guns a person pay purchase, special licenses for gun collectors, etc. As RMAborn : has already proven to be inadequate. We must expand our concepts of crime Metaksa T : mentioned, all the proposals contained in this bill have been tried in various jurisdictions, each wit RMAborn : policy to include things we have not tried before. Clearly one of these things must be gun control. Metaksa T : disatrous results, no effect on crime, except perhaps to copntribute to it by disarming honest citizen Metaksa T : citizens and encouraging criminals to attack with thee knowledge that only they have firearms. And, Metaksa T : Richard, you have not really answered my question, not about the consistent twisting of facts. Done. RPTime : We have heard lengthy speeches from each side... RPTime : In the interest of fairness, I believe Tanya you are still entitled to a direct question... RPTime : for Richard. Do you mind rephrasing it for our audience? Metaksa T : With politicians and major media calling Nov. 8 a victory for NRA -- read, defeat for the fringe RPTime : A question, please.. Metaksa T : viewpoint espoused by HCI, how would you, Richard, care to characterize the results? And please don't Metaksa T : cite instances where pro-Second Amendment candidates were defeated, but fail to mention that they Metaksa T : were defeated by even moreso pro-Sedcond Amendment candidates! RPTime : Richard? RMAborn : It is preposperous to label the results of the recent election as a referendum on gun control. A RMAborn : Republican tidal wave swept through the country. Not a single Republican that voted for the ban RMAborn : on assault weapons was defeated, not with standing the efforts of the NRA. Additionally, MRP55 : (2) Ho Ho Ho Metaksa T : Preposterous, Richard? Consider Sen. Harris Wofford: They (NRA members) and gun owners alone may RPTime : Please give Richard a moment to answer, Tanya. RMAborn : virtually all western Senators (traditionally thought of gun country) who were targeted by the NRA RMAborn : were re-elected. Gun control still enjoys enormous RMAborn : support in the polls. Metaksa T : have well made the difference in this elecrtion." AP 11-12-94. Or "Their (NRA's) grassroots effort is Metaksa T : best. They're alive and well." Anti-gun Rep. Bill Hughes 8-15-94. "Don't buck the NRA or you'll pay. A Metaksa T : , for instance, Oklahoma's Dave McCurdy paid." Wm. Raspberry 11-14-94. These are just a few, there Metaksa T : are others. NRA had an 82% success rate in Congressional elections, Richard, how did HCI do? DOne. Metaksa T : "Gun control" enjoys support in skewed polls, paid for by anti-gun groups, or conducted by polling RPTime : Let's take another audience question.. Metaksa T : groups with histories of producing anti-gun poll results. The on;ly poll tha counts is the one that Metaksa T : occurred Nov. 8. Let's go to another audience question. Done. Question : What good does an "Assault Ban" realy do, and why magazine limits? RPTime : That's from LarryK5907.. RPTime : Richard? you first. RMAborn : We believe that the assault weapon ban will be effective in reducing the number RMAborn : of shootings that occur with these weapons over the next few years just as the RMAborn : ban on the importation of these weapons signed by President Bush in 1989 was effective. RMAborn : We have pushed for a limitation on magazine capacity to ten rounds which RMAborn : by the way is now law, because there is no need for a law abiding citizen to be armed with Metaksa T : HCI may believe the ban will reduce criminal uses of firearms so-named, but there are so few that RMAborn : more than ten rounds and that part in the increase in gun violence in the country in the past Metaksa T : involvre those firearms that it may be difficult to compute the trend. The import ban succeeded in RMAborn : few years has been as a result of individuals carrying and using magazines of fifteen to thirty Metaksa T : doing nothing except raising the price of firearms restricte4d. What few criminals may have otherwise RMAborn : rounds. The magazine limit will reduce some of the fire power available to the criminal element. Metaksa T : used an "assault weapon" simply switched to other firearms. In any case, we are talking about less RPTime : Tanya I think it's fair to say that assault weapon ownership.... Metaksa T : than 1% of homicides, for example, involving those firearms, a fact generally admitted by the Washingt RPTime : Is one of the more puzzling aspects of gun ownership to non-gun owners... Metaksa T : Post AND WALL STGREET JOURNAL AROUND THE TIME of the ban's passage. By the way Richard, when you Metaksa T : testified before New York State legisltors in 1991, you called for a ban on magazines over 6 rounds RPTime : Why the opposition to their control? Metaksa T : capacity, and requiring current owners to hand existing magazines over to police. Any comment? Metaksa T : To answer the "assault weapons" question, NRA opposed their restriction because, first, of the AngelaZ123 : (2) (2) To turn mag over to the police including guns is a serious violation of our rights Metaksa T : individual right of honest citizens to own the firearms of their choice; second, our general belief Metaksa T : that you should not blame honest citizens for the acts of criminasls; third, that few criminals used Metaksa T : so-called "assault weapons," and the fact that no restriction on any class of firearm, however Metaksa T : arbitrarily defined, will change criminal behavior, encourage the criminal justice system to do a Metaksa T : better job of restraining and deterring criminals, nor can it prevent any criminal from acquiring Metaksa T : whatever firearm he or she chooses. Of course, again, the issue really isn't about crime from HCI's Metaksa T : standpoint; it is about politicvs, and engendering some degree of momentum for what it hopes, Metaksa T : in delusion, will be aq never-ending erosion of civil liberties and the traditional freedoms enjoyed RPTime : Thank you Tanya...Your response, Richard? Metaksa T : by the American people over the last 200 years and more. Done. RMAborn : One of the basic freedoms that we would like to protect is the freedom from fear. RMAborn : When we lock ourselves behind closed doors at night afaid to walk our streets, or when we are afraid RMAborn : to send our children to school unaccompanied or to enjoy our parks we are hardly enjoying freedom. RMAborn : We simply seek to reduce the amount of gun violence that plagues this nation. No more. No less. Such RPTime : In the few minutes we have left, let me ask you both a question. Tanya first, then Richard... RMAborn : an effort will only enhance all freedoms. RPTime : Is there any aspect of the gun control debate, however broadly defined... RPTime : that you feel you can support the other's position on? RPTime : Tanya? Metaksa T : Whn, if ever, HCI is ready to recognize that crime begins with the criminal, and stand with NRA in Metaksa T : support of meaningful enforcement of firearms misuse prohibitions, such as requiring persons convicted Metaksa T : of using guns in crime to serve at least 85% of their sentences, we can talk. But nothing HCI has Metaksa T : done, including its support of the phony Clinton crime bill, has put the brakes on criminal activity. RPTime : I will take it, the answer to my question, then, from the NRA's standpoint, is "no." Richard? Metaksa T : Take the differnce in approach between Maryland and Virginia. Maryland's approach is the gun control Metaksa T : approach, Virginia;'s is a touigher criminal justice syste. Any bets on whose crime trends will be bes RPTime : Please let Richard answer first, Tanya.. RMAborn : We agree with the NRA's historic emphasis on gun safety training and hope that the NRA will support Metaksa T : after a few years? Done. RMAborn : our call for mandatory safety training. RPTime : Any brief -- and I emphasize -- BRIEF final comments? RPTime : Tanya? JEFF0974 : (2) TO PERSONS WHO ARE "CONNECTED" Metaksa T : "The National Rifle Associaztion rebounded with a vengeance Tuesday when at least a dozen of the gun Metaksa T : control supporters in Congress it had targeted were defeated by candidates who oppose weapons Metaksa T : restrictions." Hearst News Service, Portland, OR. RPTime : Richard..last words? RMAborn : Not with standing, the "NRA's Rebound with a vengeance," there is no effort in new Congress RMAborn : to repeal either Brady or the ban assault weapons. If in reality the NRA had had the enormous RMAborn : victory it claims, we would have seen such an effort. The fact is the Republican party understand RMAborn : that the American people support both of these measures and they will remain the law of the land. RMAborn : Thank you. RPTime : Thank you both for being here and being such good sports. I hope we can continue this another... RPTime : evening. RPTime : And TIME Online's year-long debate on this very issue continues... Metaksa T : Thanks to Richard for pointing out that NRA has launched no effort to repeal various gun laws in RPTime : in the message boards. See "TIME's Anti-Gun Bias" to post your comments. OnlineHost : Thank you for coming! A complete transcript of : tonight's TIME Online press conference will be posted : shortly. For a further discussion of this and other : issues, check out the TIME Online message boards. Metaksa T : the 104th Congress, which has not even been sworn in. When 1995 comes, Richard, we'll review this Metaksa T : aspect of tonight's debate. Done. RPTime : Thank you again...and goodnight.