Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: [m j p] at [austin.ibm.com]  (Michael J. Phelps)
Subject: Re: Guns and Morality (Was: Wrong != Guilty)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 12:01:08 GMT

In article <205tcn$[REDACTED] at [usenet.rpi.edu]>, [k--c--r] at [mercury.ral.rpi.edu] 
                    (William Katcher) writes:
[snip]
|> I previously suggested that a law be created to "enforce" this morality.
|> However, I changed my mind.  I understand that other people do not share
|> my moral beliefs, and unless there is a large problem of accidental 
|> misuse, which I do not have evidence of, I cannot impose my beleifs 
|> upon others on their own property.  I am still opposed to the right
|> to carry a gun on public property, because I believe that I will be
|> put in greater danger because of it.

I'd like to point out that there are states that allow civilians to carry
a gun on public property.  It generally requires a license [only Vermont
allows concealed carry w/o one] issued by that state; each state's
requirements are somewhat different, but in general, a minimum of a
background check is required, and [sometimes] a training course.  

One of the best documented cases is Florida.  Their experience is well
documented, because at the time they revamped the carry laws, some people
were predicting all kinds of terrible violence would result.  In fact,
heres what happened (the law was passed in 1987):

|based on the "Concealed Weapons / Firearms License Statistical Report for 
| the Period 10/01/87 - 10/31/91"  issued by:
|
|	Florida Department of State's Division of Licensing
|	P.O. Box 6687, 
|	Tallahassee, FL 32314-6687

This one-page report states as follows:

112,528   Applications Received

 85,662   New
 26,866   Renewal

109,377   Licenses Issued

 82,756   New
 26,621   Renewal


    768   Applications Denied

    446   Criminal History
    302   Incomplete Application


    167   Licenses Revoked

     66   Clemency rule change or legislative change
     77   Crime after licensure  (10 = firearm utilized)
      6   Crime prior to licensure  (2 = firearm utilized)
     10   Illegible prints with no response
      8   Other

     12   Reinstated (no statistics maintained prior to Jan. '90)

----------- These stats are the sum total of the report ------------

What this amounts to:

167 licenses revoked = .15% (one-sixth of 1%)  of licenses issued

    i.e. 15 in 10,000 licenses were revoked

 77 licenses revoked for a crime after licensure = .07% 
    (seven hundreths of 1%)

    i.e. only 7 in 10,000 licenses were revoked for a crime

 10 licenses revoked for crime with a gun = .009%  

    i.e. less than 1 in 10,000 licenses were revoked for a crime with a gun

Florida's homicide rate dropped from 20 to 50 percent above the national
rate [1975 to 1986] to slightly below the national average in 1991.

Florida's CCW is non-discressionary; in other words, if you qualify, you
get the license.  This is also true for Washington, Oregon, Idaho, New
Hampshire, and Pennsylvania (and probably others that i've forgotten).

You might be suprised, but anyone with a New York state handgun license
also has a full-carry license [NYC preempts this; the state licenses are
not valid there].  Its administered at the county level, and although some
counties put illegal [according to the Dutchess judges & NY state police]
restrictions on the licenses, most don't.  For example, Dutchess county
does not restrict licenses.  There are about 24,500 full carry licenses
issued by Dutchess [i'm not sure if they are counting _per gun_ or _per
person_ -- each handgun requires a supplimental license], and a population
of about 250,000.  I'm not aware of any crimes of violence committed by a
Dutchess license holder in the several years i've lived here.  Yes, there
is violent crime, but invariably it turns out that the assailent was in
illegal possession of the firearm.  I've also talked with the New York
State Police, Firearms Record Bureau in Albany.  I wanted to get my hands
on the statistics for # of licenses, #revoked per yr, and the reason. 
Turns out the number of revocations are small enough that they don't even
bother to keep track of the statistics.  

Undoubtedly, living somewhere near Troy, you encounter citizens every day
who are legally carrying a handgun - you just don't know it!

[NY state: see NY State Penal Law (PL) section 400, section 265]
-- 
Michael Phelps, (external) [m j p] at [vnet.ibm.com] ..
                (internal) [m j p] at [bwa.kgn.ibm.com] .. mjp at kgnvmc         
 (and last but not least a disclaimer)  These opinions are mine..