From: [c--am--r] at [optilink.COM] (Clayton Cramer) Newsgroups: alt.news-media,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc Subject: Re: Waco Coverup Evidence (videotape) Date: 24 Aug 93 00:06:00 GMT Here's the article, in the form that it appeared in the San Jose Mercury-News recently. The references to the figures, of course, don't mean anything, because I can't turn the neat little graphs into ASCII. See the table at the end from which the charts were drawn: CALIFORNIA'S HANDGUN WAITING PERIOD LAW, 1952-1990: DID IT WORK? How effective are handgun waiting periods in preventing murder? *Do they decrease the murder rate?* Since a national waiting period for handgun purchases has been touted as a possible solution to America's murder problem, it is appropriate to examine how such waiting period laws have actually worked. Unfortunately, we don't have the option of comparing equivalent populations, one with waiting periods, and one without, for the simple reason that the factors that determine murder rates are not perfectly understood. The best we can hope for is to examine the year to year changes in murder rates before and after a waiting period is created or extended. In much the same way that the populations of adjoining states are not exactly comparable, the demographics of a state change from year to year. But while the population characteristics of two adjoining states may be dramatically different in subtle and unobvious ways, the demographics *within* a state change very slowly from year to year, as people age, change their behavior, or move in or out of the state. As a consequence, while looking at a state's crime rates through time is still a technique with limitations, it is nowhere near as prone to problems of non-comparability as comparing different states. What result should we expect a waiting period to have? There are two purposes usually given for firearms waiting periods: time for a background check on the purchaser; and a "cooling off" period, while passions abate. As instant background checks become feasible, and the waiting period is no longer needed for that purpose, the argument for a handgun waiting period relies on the claim that waiting periods save lives because of the "cooling off" of passions. What evidence does California's experience provide to judge the accuracy of such a statement? California is very nearly a perfect example of a laboratory for waiting period laws. California is sufficiently large, and its urban populations are so remote from its borders with adjoining states, that a waiting period is enforced not only by state law, but also by the limits of geography. In addition to the Gun Control Act of 1968, which prohibited interstate purchases of handguns,[1] most of California's murders happen in a small number of urban counties that are at least six to eight hours driving time from other states. Even assuming that a seller could be found *immediately* over the border in Nevada, Oregon, or Arizona, willing to break federal law, the travel time alone imposes a waiting period. California has also had a waiting period for handgun sales since at least 1923. The California Legislature increased the handgun waiting period from one to three days in 1955, to five days in 1965, and to the current 15 days in 1975.[2] Figure 1, "California Handgun Waiting Periods & Murder Rates" plots the murder rate per 100,000 Californians during the period 1952 through 1990.[3] (The use of a murder *rate*, which counts murders relative to the size of the population, eliminates changes in the number of murders caused by changes in the number of people living in California.) The increase from one to three days in 1955, and from three to five days in 1965, had no apparent effect on rising murder rates. Indeed, the California murder rate went from a bit above 2/100,000 people in 1952, to over 10/100,000 by 1975. While it is certainly true that murder rates rose throughout the United States during this period, as Figure 1 shows, California's murder rate rose *even faster* than the murder rate for the rest of the United States. The first full year of the fifteen day waiting period, 1976, showed a 1% decline in murder rates - followed by continually rising murder rates, peaking in 1980. In fact, murder rates didn't start to decline until 1981, five full years after the new waiting period took effect. Can the advocates of waiting periods take heart from the fact that California's murder rates *eventually* fell? No. Murder rates in the rest of the United States roughly rise and fall in parallel with the California murder rates. Indeed, there is a 0.93 correlation between the California murder rate, and the murder rate for the rest of the United States -- astonishingly high. From 1974 onward, the strong similarity in these curves suggests that factors beyond the reach of California's laws were by far the most important determiner of California's murder rate. The California murder rate fell 36% from 1980 to 1985, but the murder rate for the rest of the U.S. (the U.S. murder rate with California's population and murders removed) fell 26% during the same period.[4] In much the same way, the murder rate for the rest of the U.S. rose 13% from 1985 to 1990; during the same period, the California murder rate also rose 13%. In both cases, a small "hump" of murders appeared in 1986, there were declines in 1987 and 1988, then the murder rate increased in 1989 and 1990. Indeed, where California murder rates were always *lower* than for the rest of the United States before the 15 day waiting period took effect in 1976, California's murder rate from 1976 onward was always *higher* than for the rest of the United States. What conclusions can we reach from the data? Positive correlation (that two events happen together with high frequency) does not prove causality (that one event causes the other event). As an example, higher ice cream cone sales are positively correlated with increased rape rates - but this doesn't mean that ice cream cone sales cause rape. Rather, one underlying cause of both ice cream cone sales and rape is hot weather. (It is *probably* because there are more unlocked windows in the hot summer months, allowing easier access to victims at home). It is also true that zero correlation between two events does not *disprove* causality -- but if no correlation (positive or negative) between two events can be shown, it should certainly make us skeptical that a causal relationship exists. There are a number of possibilities that might explain the astonishingly high 0.91 correlation between handgun waiting periods and murder rates in California: 1. Waiting periods may be completely useless for reducing murder rates. This doesn't mean that a waiting period doesn't *occasionally* prevent a murder from happening; there are probably cases where delay may cause reflection, and the passions of the moment may subside. So what are the circumstances that would cancel out the murders prevented by a waiting period? + For every murder thus prevented, a victim was similarly prevented from buying a handgun for self-defense. + That so-called "crimes of passion" are not readily deterred by waiting periods because of substitution of other weapons. + That murderers are already armed, and thus waiting periods do not delay them. + That murderers don't bother buying handguns legally. 2. Waiting periods may be of some limited utility for reducing murder rates, but were overwhelmed by other factors. 3. Waiting periods may *increase* murder rates, but the effect that we see may have been caused by other factors, and the waiting period made only a minor contribution. 4. Waiting periods may increase murder rates, and the effect was dramatic enough to explain what we see. 5. Waiting periods may be ineffective, and the political energy devoted to them (both in support and in opposition), meant that more effective strategies for reducing murder simply fell by the wayside, and the murder rate was unaffected. Unfortunately, it is impossible, based on the available data, to determine which of these five possibilities is correct. In a sense, though, it doesn't really much matter which of these propositions is the answer to the question. If possibility #2 above (the most positive interpretation of the data for advocates of handgun waiting periods) is true, the effectiveness of handgun waiting periods as *crime control* is so slight that it doesn't jump out at us from the data. The political energy devoted to waiting periods thus makes no sense -- especially since opposition to the Brady Bill centers on the waiting period aspect of the law. (Contrary to popular perceptions, the National Rifle Association has supported, and continues to reluctantly support an instant background check law as an alternative to a national waiting period. Their support for such laws is reluctant, partly because of skepticism that *any* background check law is going to solve the fundamental causes of violence in our society.) The most plausible explanation for the continued popularity of waiting periods for gun purchase, in spite of their ineffectiveness, is that they represent a cheap consensus among politicians. A major division exists in our society about the best method for solving the problems of murder and other violent crimes. Conservatives generally favor longer sentences for violent felonies. This requires more prisons; prisons cost money. Liberals generally favor more spending on welfare programs and education as a method of reducing violent crime; these aren't cheap, either. Politicians are reluctant to anger taxpayers by use of either strategy. But creating and lengthening waiting periods for handgun purchase, because they require no expenditure of public funds, are an especially tempting "solution" to the violent crime problem - even when the evidence suggests that they are *at best*, of only minor value, and at worst, completely ineffective. ====================================================================== Clayton E. Cramer is a software engineer with a telecommunications manufacturer in Northern California. His first book, _By The Dim And Flaring Lamps: The Civil War Diary of Samuel McIlvaine_, was published in 1990. Research assistance for this article was provided by Charles R. Hardy. Notes [1] 18 USC sec. 922. [2] Cal. Penal Code Ann. 12071 (1991). [3] California murder rates for 1952-1989 in this article come from California Dept. of Justice, _Crimes Reported, 1952-1989, Number and Rate per 100,000 Population_. California murder rates for 1990 are from California Dept. of Justice, _California Criminal Justice Profile 1990_, 5. U.S. murder rates were derived from population and raw murder figures in FBI _Uniform Crime Reports for the United States_, 1952-1990. [4] This is an important distinction, because California's population is large enough, especially in the latter part of the period studied, that its murders significantly influence the U.S. murder rate. Hence, throughout this article, we are comparing the California murder rate, with the murder rate of the U.S. minus California. Year,Waiting Period (in days),California Murder Rate,US - Cal. Murder Rate '52,1,2.40,4.75 '53,1,2.28,4.62 '54,1,3.33,4.28 '55,1,3.20,4.21 '56,3,3.49,4.18 '57,3,3.50,4.77 '58,3,3.71,4.77 '59,3,3.37,4.96 '60,3,3.91,5.17 '61,3,3.70,4.78 '62,3,3.94,4.56 '63,3,3.71,4.57 '64,3,4.16,4.89 '65,3,4.76,5.10 '66,5,4.69,5.65 '67,5,5.40,6.16 '68,5,5.99,6.89 '69,5,6.93,7.23 '70,5,6.76,7.81 '71,5,8.03,8.54 '72,5,8.69,8.84 '73,5,8.92,9.24 '74,5,9.30,9.67 '75,5,10.20,9.42 '76,15,10.09,8.45 '77,15,11.10,8.41 '78,15,11.39,8.49 '79,15,12.65,9.17 '80,15,14.33,9.63 '81,15,12.98,9.42 '82,15,11.24,8.79 '83,15,10.49,7.97 '84,15,10.63,7.58 '85,15,10.55,7.64 '86,15,11.23,8.23 '87,15,10.59,7.98 '88,15,10.41,8.18 '89,15,10.87,8.40 '90,15,11.88,9.03 -- Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer My opinions, all mine! Anyone that calls what comes out of a third trimester abortion "fetal tissue" and not a baby, needs some glasses. Newsgroups: alt.news-media,alt.society.civil-liberty,misc.legal,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.misc Subject: Re: Waco Coverup Evidence (videotape) Summary: Expires: References: <24h758$[d 6 u] at [paperboy.osf.org]> <[1993 Aug 20 113910 19891] at [lds.loral.com]> <252pt5$[s n v] at [transfer.stratus.com]> Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: DSC/Optilink Access Products Keywords: guns, stupidity, whacko In article <252pt5$[s n v] at [transfer.stratus.com]> [c d t] at [sw.stratus.com] (C. D. Tavares) writes: >In article <[1993 Aug 20 113910 19891] at [lds.loral.com]>, [k--d--l] at [lds.loral.com] (Colin Kendall 6842) writes: >> The best way to find out whether gun contol works would be to find >> groups of identical cities, and enact gun control in some of them and >> not others, and observe the results. Unfortunately, there are no >> identical cities. > >Uh, there sure are. They're the same city, before and after gun control. > >Try comparing their own crime rates with their own crime rates, before >and after. And for a lark, try comparing that change with the change >in the crime rates in surrounding areas and on a national basis. The >comparison will give you pause. > >Clayton Cramer published such a comparison for the state of California >in a recent issue of American Rifleman. It showed a drastic jump in >the crime rates AFTER every increase in the California waiting period, >until the California rate was something like 15(?) times the rate of >the surrounding areas. Maybe somebody has it online here. Here's the article, in the form that it appeared in the San Jose Mercury-News recently. The references to the figures, of course, don't mean anything, because I can't turn the neat little graphs into ASCII. See the table at the end from which the charts were drawn: CALIFORNIA'S HANDGUN WAITING PERIOD LAW, 1952-1990: DID IT WORK? How effective are handgun waiting periods in preventing murder? *Do they decrease the murder rate?* Since a national waiting period for handgun purchases has been touted as a possible solution to America's murder problem, it is appropriate to examine how such waiting period laws have actually worked. Unfortunately, we don't have the option of comparing equivalent populations, one with waiting periods, and one without, for the simple reason that the factors that determine murder rates are not perfectly understood. The best we can hope for is to examine the year to year changes in murder rates before and after a waiting period is created or extended. In much the same way that the populations of adjoining states are not exactly comparable, the demographics of a state change from year to year. But while the population characteristics of two adjoining states may be dramatically different in subtle and unobvious ways, the demographics *within* a state change very slowly from year to year, as people age, change their behavior, or move in or out of the state. As a consequence, while looking at a state's crime rates through time is still a technique with limitations, it is nowhere near as prone to problems of non-comparability as comparing different states. What result should we expect a waiting period to have? There are two purposes usually given for firearms waiting periods: time for a background check on the purchaser; and a "cooling off" period, while passions abate. As instant background checks become feasible, and the waiting period is no longer needed for that purpose, the argument for a handgun waiting period relies on the claim that waiting periods save lives because of the "cooling off" of passions. What evidence does California's experience provide to judge the accuracy of such a statement? California is very nearly a perfect example of a laboratory for waiting period laws. California is sufficiently large, and its urban populations are so remote from its borders with adjoining states, that a waiting period is enforced not only by state law, but also by the limits of geography. In addition to the Gun Control Act of 1968, which prohibited interstate purchases of handguns,[1] most of California's murders happen in a small number of urban counties that are at least six to eight hours driving time from other states. Even assuming that a seller could be found *immediately* over the border in Nevada, Oregon, or Arizona, willing to break federal law, the travel time alone imposes a waiting period. California has also had a waiting period for handgun sales since at least 1923. The California Legislature increased the handgun waiting period from one to three days in 1955, to five days in 1965, and to the current 15 days in 1975.[2] Figure 1, "California Handgun Waiting Periods & Murder Rates" plots the murder rate per 100,000 Californians during the period 1952 through 1990.[3] (The use of a murder *rate*, which counts murders relative to the size of the population, eliminates changes in the number of murders caused by changes in the number of people living in California.) The increase from one to three days in 1955, and from three to five days in 1965, had no apparent effect on rising murder rates. Indeed, the California murder rate went from a bit above 2/100,000 people in 1952, to over 10/100,000 by 1975. While it is certainly true that murder rates rose throughout the United States during this period, as Figure 1 shows, California's murder rate rose *even faster* than the murder rate for the rest of the United States. The first full year of the fifteen day waiting period, 1976, showed a 1% decline in murder rates - followed by continually rising murder rates, peaking in 1980. In fact, murder rates didn't start to decline until 1981, five full years after the new waiting period took effect. Can the advocates of waiting periods take heart from the fact that California's murder rates *eventually* fell? No. Murder rates in the rest of the United States roughly rise and fall in parallel with the California murder rates. Indeed, there is a 0.93 correlation between the California murder rate, and the murder rate for the rest of the United States -- astonishingly high. From 1974 onward, the strong similarity in these curves suggests that factors beyond the reach of California's laws were by far the most important determiner of California's murder rate. The California murder rate fell 36% from 1980 to 1985, but the murder rate for the rest of the U.S. (the U.S. murder rate with California's population and murders removed) fell 26% during the same period.[4] In much the same way, the murder rate for the rest of the U.S. rose 13% from 1985 to 1990; during the same period, the California murder rate also rose 13%. In both cases, a small "hump" of murders appeared in 1986, there were declines in 1987 and 1988, then the murder rate increased in 1989 and 1990. Indeed, where California murder rates were always *lower* than for the rest of the United States before the 15 day waiting period took effect in 1976, California's murder rate from 1976 onward was always *higher* than for the rest of the United States. What conclusions can we reach from the data? Positive correlation (that two events happen together with high frequency) does not prove causality (that one event causes the other event). As an example, higher ice cream cone sales are positively correlated with increased rape rates - but this doesn't mean that ice cream cone sales cause rape. Rather, one underlying cause of both ice cream cone sales and rape is hot weather. (It is *probably* because there are more unlocked windows in the hot summer months, allowing easier access to victims at home). It is also true that zero correlation between two events does not *disprove* causality -- but if no correlation (positive or negative) between two events can be shown, it should certainly make us skeptical that a causal relationship exists. There are a number of possibilities that might explain the astonishingly high 0.91 correlation between handgun waiting periods and murder rates in California: 1. Waiting periods may be completely useless for reducing murder rates. This doesn't mean that a waiting period doesn't *occasionally* prevent a murder from happening; there are probably cases where delay may cause reflection, and the passions of the moment may subside. So what are the circumstances that would cancel out the murders prevented by a waiting period? + For every murder thus prevented, a victim was similarly prevented from buying a handgun for self-defense. + That so-called "crimes of passion" are not readily deterred by waiting periods because of substitution of other weapons. + That murderers are already armed, and thus waiting periods do not delay them. + That murderers don't bother buying handguns legally. 2. Waiting periods may be of some limited utility for reducing murder rates, but were overwhelmed by other factors. 3. Waiting periods may *increase* murder rates, but the effect that we see may have been caused by other factors, and the waiting period made only a minor contribution. 4. Waiting periods may increase murder rates, and the effect was dramatic enough to explain what we see. 5. Waiting periods may be ineffective, and the political energy devoted to them (both in support and in opposition), meant that more effective strategies for reducing murder simply fell by the wayside, and the murder rate was unaffected. Unfortunately, it is impossible, based on the available data, to determine which of these five possibilities is correct. In a sense, though, it doesn't really much matter which of these propositions is the answer to the question. If possibility #2 above (the most positive interpretation of the data for advocates of handgun waiting periods) is true, the effectiveness of handgun waiting periods as *crime control* is so slight that it doesn't jump out at us from the data. The political energy devoted to waiting periods thus makes no sense -- especially since opposition to the Brady Bill centers on the waiting period aspect of the law. (Contrary to popular perceptions, the National Rifle Association has supported, and continues to reluctantly support an instant background check law as an alternative to a national waiting period. Their support for such laws is reluctant, partly because of skepticism that *any* background check law is going to solve the fundamental causes of violence in our society.) The most plausible explanation for the continued popularity of waiting periods for gun purchase, in spite of their ineffectiveness, is that they represent a cheap consensus among politicians. A major division exists in our society about the best method for solving the problems of murder and other violent crimes. Conservatives generally favor longer sentences for violent felonies. This requires more prisons; prisons cost money. Liberals generally favor more spending on welfare programs and education as a method of reducing violent crime; these aren't cheap, either. Politicians are reluctant to anger taxpayers by use of either strategy. But creating and lengthening waiting periods for handgun purchase, because they require no expenditure of public funds, are an especially tempting "solution" to the violent crime problem - even when the evidence suggests that they are *at best*, of only minor value, and at worst, completely ineffective. ====================================================================== Clayton E. Cramer is a software engineer with a telecommunications manufacturer in Northern California. His first book, _By The Dim And Flaring Lamps: The Civil War Diary of Samuel McIlvaine_, was published in 1990. Research assistance for this article was provided by Charles R. Hardy. Notes [1] 18 USC sec. 922. [2] Cal. Penal Code Ann. 12071 (1991). [3] California murder rates for 1952-1989 in this article come from California Dept. of Justice, _Crimes Reported, 1952-1989, Number and Rate per 100,000 Population_. California murder rates for 1990 are from California Dept. of Justice, _California Criminal Justice Profile 1990_, 5. U.S. murder rates were derived from population and raw murder figures in FBI _Uniform Crime Reports for the United States_, 1952-1990. [4] This is an important distinction, because California's population is large enough, especially in the latter part of the period studied, that its murders significantly influence the U.S. murder rate. Hence, throughout this article, we are comparing the California murder rate, with the murder rate of the U.S. minus California. Year,Waiting Period (in days),California Murder Rate,US - Cal. Murder Rate '52,1,2.40,4.75 '53,1,2.28,4.62 '54,1,3.33,4.28 '55,1,3.20,4.21 '56,3,3.49,4.18 '57,3,3.50,4.77 '58,3,3.71,4.77 '59,3,3.37,4.96 '60,3,3.91,5.17 '61,3,3.70,4.78 '62,3,3.94,4.56 '63,3,3.71,4.57 '64,3,4.16,4.89 '65,3,4.76,5.10 '66,5,4.69,5.65 '67,5,5.40,6.16 '68,5,5.99,6.89 '69,5,6.93,7.23 '70,5,6.76,7.81 '71,5,8.03,8.54 '72,5,8.69,8.84 '73,5,8.92,9.24 '74,5,9.30,9.67 '75,5,10.20,9.42 '76,15,10.09,8.45 '77,15,11.10,8.41 '78,15,11.39,8.49 '79,15,12.65,9.17 '80,15,14.33,9.63 '81,15,12.98,9.42 '82,15,11.24,8.79 '83,15,10.49,7.97 '84,15,10.63,7.58 '85,15,10.55,7.64 '86,15,11.23,8.23 '87,15,10.59,7.98 '88,15,10.41,8.18 '89,15,10.87,8.40 '90,15,11.88,9.03 Newsgroups: alt.news-media,alt.society.civil-liberty,misc.legal,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.misc Subject: Re: Waco Coverup Evidence (videotape) Summary: Expires: References: <24h758$[d 6 u] at [paperboy.osf.org]> <[1993 Aug 20 113910 19891] at [lds.loral.com]> <252pt5$[s n v] at [transfer.stratus.com]> Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: DSC/Optilink Access Products Keywords: guns, stupidity, whacko In article <252pt5$[s n v] at [transfer.stratus.com]> [c d t] at [sw.stratus.com] (C. D. Tavares) writes: >In article <[1993 Aug 20 113910 19891] at [lds.loral.com]>, [k--d--l] at [lds.loral.com] (Colin Kendall 6842) writes: > >> Even if one could show a significant drop in gun crime *after* passing >> such laws, it would still be meaningless, since it still wouldn't show >> any kind of causation. Just as when the pro-gun people point to New >> York or D.C. and say that gun control laws were passed and gun crime >> subsequently increased, and triumphantly proclaim that the former is >> the *cause* of the latter. This is a well-known logical fallacy. It's >> called 'post hoc ergo propter hoc', meaning 'after this, therefore >> because of this'. > >> Look. New York and D.C. had a problem with gun crime. It was >> increasing. In an attempt to curb it, people passed gun control laws. >> Gun crime continued to increase. This is not to say that if gun control >> laws had not been passed, gun crime would have increased faster, or >> more slowly, or stayed the same. Nobody knows. > >> It may be the case that if gun control laws had not been passed, things >> would have gotten worse even faster. Nobody knows. > >Bullshit. So prove it's a logical fallacy. Find somewhere where they >were having the same problem, passed gun control laws, and the problem >got BETTER. > >You can't, because there ARE NONE. Not England, not Canada, not France. >Cerainly not Mexico, Jamaica, or Ireland. > >Yet you point to NYC, DC, Chicago, L.A., say "causation is not proved," >as an attempt to imply that the strong correlation is therefore irrelevant. > >Do you work for a tobacco company, Mr. Kendall? > >(Hey, wasn't there a cigarette called "Loral?") > >> It may be the case that if gun control laws had not been passed, people >> would have become angry and armed themselves and shot more criminals, >> thus leading to a decrease in gun crime. Nobody knows. > >"Although shootings of criminals represent a small fraction of defensive uses >of guns, Americans shoot criminals with a frequency that must be regarded as >remarkable by any standard." ("Crime Control through the Private Use of >Armed Force" Professor Gary Kleck, 2/88 *Social Problems*.) Dr. Kleck >estimates that annually, "gun-wielding civilians in self-defense or some >other legally justified cause" kill at least 1,500 felons, or 2.5 times as >many as are shot dead by the police. > >And that's with the CURRENT laws. > >> The best way to find out whether gun contol works would be to find >> groups of identical cities, and enact gun control in some of them and >> not others, and observe the results. Unfortunately, there are no >> identical cities. > >Uh, there sure are. They're the same city, before and after gun control. > >Try comparing their own crime rates with their own crime rates, before >and after. And for a lark, try comparing that change with the change >in the crime rates in surrounding areas and on a national basis. The >comparison will give you pause. > >Clayton Cramer published such a comparison for the state of California >in a recent issue of American Rifleman. It showed a drastic jump in >the crime rates AFTER every increase in the California waiting period, >until the California rate was something like 15(?) times the rate of >the surrounding areas. Maybe somebody has it online here. > >But don't let US "pick" the cases. Why trust us? You pick one, and >do your own unbiased study. We'll wait. > >> The next best way would be to use groups of *similar* cities. But >> I fear that in this case, whichever side was disappointed as a >> result of the study would just say, "Oh, well, you really can't >> compare city X and city Y, the demographics are so different...". > >Try the same city or state, and try finding one that REMOVED some gun >controls. Try the states of Mississippi or Florida, which recently >introduced concealed carry for citizens. Try the city of Orlando, >which publicly armed women against rape. Try Isleton, California. >Try the city of Kennesaw, Georgia. Compare their violent crime >rates before and after the change. > >Find one where the rates went UP. > >Find one where the change rate in the affected area DIDN'T compare >favorably to that of the surrounding areas in the subsequent period. >-- > >[c d t] at [rocket.sw.stratus.com] --If you believe that I speak for my company, >OR [c d t] at [vos.stratus.com] write today for my special Investors' Packet... -- Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer My opinions, all mine! Anyone that calls what comes out of a third trimester abortion "fetal tissue" and not a baby, needs some glasses.