From: [s--m--l] at [crl.com] (Stephen J. Kimmel)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: What is "well regulated?" was: (Re: Second Amendment Law)
Date: 25 Aug 1994 23:39:04 -0700
Summary: what did "well regulated" mean way back then
 Expires:

In article <[DOCONNOR 94 Aug 25155001] at [sedona.intel.com]> [d--on--r] at [sedona.intel.com] (Dennis O'Connor) writes:
>] What I'm really after is whether they
>] were specifically instituted so that the Bill of Rights could be interpreted
>] as giving the average male citizen the right to bear arms.
>
>According to the authors of the Bill of Rights, yes. Pop down to
>a local bookstore and buy a copy of "The Federalist Papers".
>Or check through a list of Thomas Jefferson's quotations,
>or George Washington, or any of the Clinton-branded "radicals"
>who chartered this nation's government.
>--
>Dennis O'Connor                          [d--on--r] at [sedona.intel.com]
>Intel i960(R) Microprocessor Division    Solely responsible for what I do.
>
>
And what did they say at the time they were writing it?
from the bicentennial edition of the "Notes of Debates in the Federal
Convention of 1787 Reported by James Madison", W. W. Norton & Co., ISBN:
0-393-30405-1.  
Page 512:
In Convention Thursday Aug: 23. 1787
  The Report of the Committee of Eleven made Aug: 21. Being taken up, and
the following clause being under consideration to wit "To make laws for
organizing, arming & disciplining the Militia, and for governing such 
part of them as may be employed in the service of the U.S. reserving 
to the States respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the
authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed --"
 Mr. Sherman moved to strike out the last member-- "and authority of training
&c.  He thought it unnecessary.  The States will have this authority of
course if not given up.
 Mr. Elsworth doubted the propriety of striking out the sentence. The reason
assigned applies as well to the other reservation of the appointment to 
offices.  He remarked at the same time that the term discipline was of vast
extent and might be so expounded as to include all power on the subject.
 Mr. King, by way of explination, said that by _organizing_, the Committee 
meant, proportioning the officers & men - by _arming_, specifying the kind
size & caliber of arms - & by _disciplining_ prescribing the manual exersize
evolutions &c.
 Mr. Sherman withdrew his motion.
 Mr. Gerry.  This power in the U.S. as explained is making the States
drill-sergeants.  He had as lief[sic] let the Citizens of Massachussets be 
disarmed, as to take command from the States, and subject them to the
Genl. Legislature.  It would be regarded as a system of Despotism.
 Mr. Madison observed that "arming" as explained did not extend to 
furnishing arms; nor the term "disciplining" to penalities & Courts
Martial for enforcing them.
 Mr. King added, to his former explination that arming meant not only
to provide for uniformity of arms, but included the authority to
regulate the modes of furnishing, either by the Militia themselves, the
State Governments, or the National Treasury: that _laws_ for
disciplining, must involve penalties and every thing necessary for 
enforcing penalties. 
 Mr. Dayton moved to postpone the paragraph, in order to take up the
following proposition
 "To establish an uniform & general system of discipline for the Militia
of these States, and to make laws for organizing, arming, disciplining &
governing [begin itallics] such part of them as may be employed in the
service of the U.S.[end itallics], reserving for the States respectively
the appointment of the officers, and all authority over the Militia not herin
given to the General Government"
 On the question to postpone in favor of this proposition: it passed in the
Negative.
 N.H. no. Mas no. Ct. no. N.J. ay. P. no. Del. no. Maryd. ay. Va. no. 
N.C. no. S.C. no. Geo. ay.
 Mr. Elsworth & Mr. Sherman moved to postpone the 2d. clause in favor of
the following "To establish an uniformity of arms, exersize & organizing
for the Militia, and to provide for the Government of them when called
into service of the U. States"  The object of this proposition was to refer
the plan for the Militia to the General Govt. but leave the execution
of it to the State Govt.
 Mr. Langdon said He could not understand the jealousy expressed by some
Gentleman.  The General & State Govt. were not enemies to each other,
but different institutions for the good of the people of America.  As one
of the people he could say, the National Govt. is mine, the State Govt.
is mine.  In transferring power from one to the other, I only take out of
my left hand what it can not so well use, and put it into my right hand
where it can be better used.
 Mr. Gerry thought it was rather taking out of the right hand & putting it
into the left.  Will any man say that liberty will be as safe in the
hands of eighty or a hundred men taken from the whole continent, as in 
the hands of two or three hundred taken from a single state.
 Mr. Dayton was against so absolute a uniformity.  In some States there 
ought to be a greater proportion of cavalry than in others.  In some 
places rifles would be most proper, in others muskets &c.
 Genl. Pinkney prefered the clause reported by the Committee, extending
the meaning of it to the case of fines &c.
 Mr. Madison.  The primary object is to secure effectual discipline of the
Militia.  This will no more be done if left to the States separately 
than the requisitions have been hitherto paid by them. The States neglect
their Militia now, and the more they are consolidated into one nation,
the less each will rely on its own interior provisions for its safety &
the less prepare its Militia for that purpose; in like manner as the 
Militia of a State would have been still more neglected than it has been 
if each County had been independently charged with the care of its 
Militia. The discipline of the Militia is evidently a _National_
concern, and ought to be provided for in the _National_
Constitution.
 Mr. L. Martin was confident that the States would never give up the 
power over the Militia; and that, if they were to do so the militia would 
be less attended to by the Genl. than by the State Governments.
 Mr. Randolf asked what danger there could be that the Militia could be 
brought into the field and made to commit suicide on themselves.  This is 
a power that can not from its nature be abused, unless indeed the whole 
mass should be corrupted.  He was for trammelling the Genl. Govt. 
whenever there was danger, but here there could be none.  He urged this 
as an essential point; observing that the Militia were every where 
neglected by the State Legislatures, the members of which courted 
popularity too much to enforce a proper discipline.  Leaving the 
appointment of officers to the states protects the people agst. every
apprehension that could produce a murmur.
 On the question on Mr. Elsworth's Motion
 N.H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N.J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N.C. 
no. S.C. no. Geo. no.
 A motion was then made to recommit the 2d. clause which was negatived.
 On the question to agree to the 1st. part of the clause, namely 
"To make laws for organizing arming & disciplining the Militia, and for
governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the U.S."
 N.H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N.J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. 
N.C. ay. S.C. ay. Geo. ay.
 Mr. Madison moved to amend the next part of the clause so as to read 
"reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of the officers,
[begin itallics] under the rank of General officers"[end itallics]
 Mr. Sherman considered this absolutely inadmissible.  He said that if 
the people should be so far asleep as to allow the most influential 
officers of the militia to be appointed by the Genl. Government, every 
man of discernment would rouse them by sounding the alarm to them.
 Mr. Gerry. Let us at once destroy the State Govts. have an Executive for 
life or hereditary, and a proper Senate, and then there would be some 
consistency in giving full powers to the Genl. Govt. but as the States 
are not to be abolished, he wondered at the attempts that were made to 
give powers inconsistent with their existence.  He warned the Convention
agst. pushing the experiment too far.  Some people will support a plan
of vigorous Government at every risk.  Others of a more democratic cast
will oppose it with equal determination, and a Civil war may be produced
by the confilct.
 Mr. Madison. As the greatest danger is that of disunion of the States, 
it is necessary to guard agst. it by sufficient powers to the Common
Govt. and as the greatest danger to liberty is from large standing armies,
it is best to prevent them, by an effectual provision for a good Militia.
 On the Question to agree to Mr. Madison's motion
 N.H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. no. N.J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no.
N.C. no. S.C. ay. Geo. ay.[in the printed journal Geo: no.]
 On the question to agree to the "reserving to the States the appointment
of the officers". It was agreed to nem: contrad:
 On the question on the clause "and the authority of training the Militia
according to the discipline prescribed by the U.S.--"
 N.H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N.J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no.
N.C. ay. S.C. no. Geo. no.
 On the question to agree to Art. VII Sect. 7 as reported It passed nem.
contrad: 

This is from the notes James Madison took at the Constitutional Convention
of 1787, released after his death.  Being in note form they are somewhat
jumpy with inconsistent puncuation, but hopefully you get the sense of it.  
Don't ask me what "nem: contrad:" means.  The bicentennial edition was
published in 1987 by Norton by arrangement with Ohio University Press and
in Canada by Penguin Books Canada Ltd.  I found my copy at a used book
sale.  I don't know if it's still in print.   The book is about 660 pages
long and is a great window in into the actual debates and dialogue of the
convention. 

 Article I, Section 8, #16. 
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for 
governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the 
United States, reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of
officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the 
discipline prescribed by Congress;


-- 
Steve Kimmel						[s--m--l] at [crl.com]
Phoenix, Arizona