Newsgroups: alt.law-enforcement,talk.politics.guns
From: [m j p] at [austin.ibm.com] (Michael J. Phelps)
Subject: Re: New US gun control bill
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 19:22:40 GMT
In article <[nagleCADE 8 I F 7 C] at [netcom.com]>, [n--g--e] at [netcom.com] (John Nagle)
|> writes:
|> Following is the text of S.892, currently being considered in
|> Congress, intended to totally prohibit private ownership of handguns and
|> ammo.
|>
|> I think the time has come for this. It's comparable to the
|> restrictions Japan and Britain enforce. The key item here is ammo;
|> the US has a 100 year supply of guns, but only a 4 year supply of ammo.
|> It may take a decade to become effective, but if we are going to have
|> restrictions, something like this is the way to go. And it has to be
|> national; state restrictions are ineffective.
I'd like to address these points one at a time; i'll elaborate further
if you are interested.
I don't agree that 'the time has come for this'. The time has come
for us to demand that the violent criminals be punished - swiftly,
severly, and with certainty.
A small number of repeat offenders is responsible for the majority of
violent crimes. Heres a bunch, all from 'Combating Violent Crime: 24
Recommendations to Strengthen Criminal Justice', US Dept of Justice,
office of the Attorney General 7/28/92
From the cover letter, written by Attorney General William Barr:
"The problem of violent crime in America is largely the problem of
the repeat, violent offender. A small segment of our population
is responsible for a large share of the violent crime. Study after
study has identified a small group of hardened, chronic offenders
who commit a staggering number of crimes -- well over one hundred a
year for many of these violent predators."
Pretrial release of violent felons, pg 2:
"A study of pretrial release in 75 of the nations' most populous
counties in 1988 found that 18% of released defendants were known
to have been rearrested for the commission of a felony while on
pretrial release. 2/3 of those rearrested while on release were
again released"
BJS 'Pretrial Release of Felony Defendants 1988' [1991]
Lazar Institute 'Pretrial Release: an evaluation of
Defendant Outcomes and Program Impact' [1981]
Effective deterrence and punishment of adult offenders, pp 6-7:
"It is no mystery why this is the case. Again and again, studies have
indicated that a relatively small portion of the population is
responsible for a large percentage of the criminal violence in this
country. One California study found that 3.8% of a group of males
born in 1956 were responsible for 55.5% of all serious felonies
committed by the study group [5]. A Philadelphia cohort study
conducted by Professor Marvin Wolfgang of UPenn found that about
7% of males in two birth cohorts (1945 and 1958) accounted for over
2/3 of all violent crimes commited by each group [6]."
[5] from Robert Tillman 'Prevalence and Incidence of Arrest among
Adult Males in California' [1987]. Study size was 236,000 men
born in 1956 from ages 18-29. The study counted all FBI index
crimes committed by the group - murder, nn manslaughter, rape
robbery, agg. assault, burglary, larnecy and mv theft.
[6] See PE Tracy, ME Wolfgang, RM Figlio 'Delinquency Careers in Two
Birth Cohorts, pp 279-80' [1990]
again, p 14:
"Similarly, one study by the BATF of a group of career criminals
found that each had committed an average of 160 crimes per year [21].
A 1982 Rand Corp study found that 24% of inmages surveyed admitted to
having committed more than 135 crimes a year apiece, and about 10%
claimed responsibility for over 600 crimes per year [22]."
[21] BATF "Protecting America: the Effectiveness of the Federal Armed
Career Criminal Statute" p 29 [1992]
[22] Jan M. Chaiken, Marcia R. Chaiken "Varieties of Criminal Behaviour"
p 215 [1982]
Now, specifically addressing the UK, they enacted 'strict gun control
laws' in the 1920s. They had a low violent crime rate before enacting
controls, which continued afterwards. In other words, their violent crime
rate wasn't affected by gun control laws; Canada has had much the same
experience. You have to compare the before and after picture to determine
if there was any effect.
Now, can you find an example where violent crime rates dropped due to gun
control laws? Lets see - Washington DC? Nope, passed handgun prohibition
in '75 .. its among the most violent cities in the US - far outstripping
the surrounding communities where firearms are legally available.
The US passed extensive _federal_ laws in 1968; the violent crime rates
didn't even blink, rising from 1960 to their peak in 1979; they then
declined from 1980 to 1985, then rose again - although they are still
below the 1979 rates. The drop in the early 1980s wasn't caused by
new gun laws either ..
While you contend that only federal laws will work, since its obvious
that state and local laws are not effective, i don't see any evidence
that this is so; take, for example, the notorously ineffective federal
drug laws - and they deal with a consumable entity, one that must be
replenished.
|> NRA membership, and clout, has been dropping for years. A majority
|> of Americans, in polls, favor something like this. So what's the law
|> enforcement position?
Actually, NRA membership has been growing [its about 3.1 million now,
up from about the low 2.x million a couple of years ago]. Its the
3rd largest orgainization of its' sort - AARP and AAA have more members.
The poll you refer to is based on work done by Lou Harris, who was funded
by a anti-gun group to the tune of about $90k bucks. Of course he got the
answer they wanted! The main question is extremely confusing:
He asked: "Do you favor or oppose a federal law
banning the ownership of all handguns, except those given
permission by a court of law?"
The addition of the phrase "except those given permission by a court
of law," surely led some respondents to believe they were being asked
about a handgun licensing law rather than a handgun ban. For instance,
anyone in NY who owns a handgun [legally] has permission from the court.
As for LE: heres an exerpt from a police magazine:
Law Enforcement Technology July/August 1991
FROM THE EDITOR
Of those readers responding to the Gun Control Survey questionnaire
published in the March issue, 75 percent do not favor gun control
legislation. Top management support it to a greater extent, with
street officers opposing it by as much as 85%. Many wrote in to
this effect, explaining their positions in great detail. We were
impressed by the thought-provoking, eloquent letters we received
from all over the country. I'd like to share with you some of the
most resounding responses.
"Gun control does not equal less crime," said many law enforcement
professionals. No one is in support of violent crime. Many pointed
to places with the strictest laws on the books--Washington and New
York--that also have the highest crime rates. "Criminals will
always get guns," say our readers, and they will get them as they
always do--illegally. One officer suggested a federal law to
prevent firearms purchases across state lines.
We received a flurry of comments about the Second Amendment and the
right to bear arms. The popular view is that the Second Amendment
is "clear" and that "any infringement to that right is a blow to
freedom." In regard to the wording of the Second Amendment: "A
well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free
state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be
infringed, " one reader commented that "some people attempt to
confuse the issue by melting the sentence together." Quite a few of
those polled tempered their response of no limit by recommending
that there should be some reasonable limit on firearms, i.e., for
mentally unstable persons or convicted felons.
"An automobile in the hands of an impaired driver" was a common
response to the weapon you feel threatened by most. An inanimate
object is nothing to fear but the criminal mind is frightening.
Many non-firearms topped the most-feared weapon list including
knives, baseball bats and bar glasses. In addition, others wryly
suggested lawyers, reporters and congressmen.
On a humorous note, one reader wrote: "My guess is that it would
work out that an automobile accident is more than 10 times likely
to kill you [than a gun]; and by actual statistics heart disease is
16 times more likely to kill you than an automobile accident. You
are actually much safer ~an gun control advocates would like you to
believe, just by staying away from greasy foods."
Another reader summed up the gun control dilemma succinctly by
saying, "I think the root of the problem we are facing and now
trying to fix with more gun control laws is being overlooked. This
root is the family structure and [lack of I morality prevalent in
life in America. In the 19th century, the family structure was
strong with its own deterrent influence of penalties, etcetera.
Today's population . . . tries to legislate the conduct to the
point where it restricts the rights of all the citizens."
As for alternatives, recommendations for "mandatory imprisonment,"
"no plea bargaining," and "stiffer penalties" for those using a gun
in the commission of a crime, were by far in the lead as popular
responses.
Other suggestions included "training schools similar to those found
in Germany," "gun taxes," and "annual shooting re-qualification."
All in all readers contend, it's time to get tough on the criminal
not on the law-abiding citizen. Take a look at The Gun Control
Survey on page 14.1 think you'll find it interesting and useful.
And thanks for all your input.
Donna Rogers
Executive Editor
LAW ENFORCEMENT TECHNOLOGY
445 Broad Hollow Road
Suite 21 Melville, NY 11747
516-845-2700 FAX 845-7109
The following article appeared in:
Law Enforcement Technology July/August 1991
75% of law enforcement professionals vehemently oppose gun control,
according to the results of a poll of 2,000 police managers and
street officers.
Do you believe a citizen has the constitutional right to
bear arms and any limit is an infringement of rights?
Do you support a ban on concealed weapons?
Do You support a ban on assault weapons?
Do you support a waiting period for handgun purchases?
Would you be in favor of a background check for firearms
purchases if computerized?
In your opinion, does gun control lessen crime?
The Law Enforcement Technology
GUN CONTROL SURVEY
Nearly 2,000 of Law Enforcement Technology's 25,000 subscribers
have responded to the "Gun Control Survey" published in the March
issue of the magazine.
Responses to the survey--which may be the only one of its
kind--show that 77.4% of the police chiefs, sheriffs, law
enforcement top and middle managers and street officers who
responded believe citizens have a constitutional right to bear arms
and that gun control would infringe on this right. Most cited the
2nd Amendment, and the need for citizens to be able to defend
themselves against "criminals, an invading army or a tyrannical
government."
Overall, the majority of respondents (84.6%) feel that gun
control does not lessen crime, and many (78.2%) expressed the
opinion that "criminals will always get guns." Most of those who
commented on the question agreed with one respondent, who noted,
"Gun control will only affect those who abide by the law.
Criminals, by their very nature, do not abide by laws--they break
them."
Of those responding, 21.1% were chiefs, sheriffs or top
management; 37.1% were middle management; and 41.8% were street
officers. All three groups were overwhelmingly against a ban on
assault weapons (78.7%), and 92.9% felt that handguns should be
used by private citizens for personal protection.
A ban on concealed weapons was supported by only 37.5%, with
those against it (62.5%) concluding, "it's too restrictive," and
"punishes the good majority for the acts of a few."
Respondents repeatedly pointed out that gun control laws "don't
address the real issue of crime--the criminal," and many asserted
the need for "enforcement of existing laws" and "mandatory jail
sentences" with "no plea bargaining." Survey participants
questioned "Why are lawmakers afraid of tough sentences?" and many
asserted the need to limit paroles, and curtail probation and work
release programs.
Of those surveyed, 78.5% are in favor of a computerized
background check on those purchasing firearms. "This system could
work, but only if we had a national computer clearinghouse shared
state to state," said one officer.
(But only 44.2% support a waiting period prior to handgun
purchases, because "criminals have no waiting period.")
Although the survey was brief and concise, many of those who
filled it out felt so strongly about the subject of gun control
that they expanded their responses into lengthy letters--detailing
the reasons they are against it.
In general, those surveyed felt that efforts to restrict gun
control have not been successful in the past and they pointed out
that some of the states with the strictest gun statutes have high
crime rates anyway. Whether laws restrict gun purchases or not,
they said, guns are still available illegally on the street.
"When Cain killed Abel, I don't think he used an AK-47. Crime
will happen, weapon or not," said one respondent. But others felt
stiffer penalties, mandatory sentences and enforcement of "hundreds
of gun laws " already on the books could help deter crime. Overall,
they said, the answer is gun control by stiffer enforcement. not
more gun control legislation.
Compiled by the LET.staff and Horizon Research, Inc.
July/August 1991- Law Enforcement Technology
[thanks to Larry Cipriani for the article]
As for the 4yr supply of ammo, i think you've fallen into the Daniel
Patrick Moynihan trap - ammunition:
(a) lasts on the shelf for years
(b) is readily manufactured with fairly rudimentary tools
(c) would be available from other sources such as
- rougue police employees
- theft from police/military
- smuggling: the criminal market doesn't demand lots
of ammunition to function quite well
IMHO, Sen Chafee and Pell have done both sides of this argument a grave
disservice; they have managed to further polarize people. Their bill
is de-facto proof to many that the "we don't want to ban them" line just
isn't true - they _do_ want to ban handguns.
Theres lots more details, of course.. please feel free to point, and
i'll try to provide more as needed.
BTW, check out:
POINT BLANK
Guns and Violence in America
Gary Kleck 1991
Aldine De Gruyter, New York ISBN 0-202-30419-1
6x9 512+xv pp. clothbound $expensive but worth it
Its about the most recent and comprehensive work i've found yet.
Followups to talk.politics.guns
--
Michael Phelps, (external) [m j p] at [vnet.ibm.com] ..
(internal) [m j p] at [bwa.kgn.ibm.com] .. mjp at kgnvmc
(and last but not least a disclaimer) These opinions are mine..