Newsgroups: alt.law-enforcement,talk.politics.guns From: [m j p] at [austin.ibm.com] (Michael J. Phelps) Subject: Re: New US gun control bill Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 19:22:40 GMT In article <[nagleCADE 8 I F 7 C] at [netcom.com]>, [n--g--e] at [netcom.com] (John Nagle) |> writes: |> Following is the text of S.892, currently being considered in |> Congress, intended to totally prohibit private ownership of handguns and |> ammo. |> |> I think the time has come for this. It's comparable to the |> restrictions Japan and Britain enforce. The key item here is ammo; |> the US has a 100 year supply of guns, but only a 4 year supply of ammo. |> It may take a decade to become effective, but if we are going to have |> restrictions, something like this is the way to go. And it has to be |> national; state restrictions are ineffective. I'd like to address these points one at a time; i'll elaborate further if you are interested. I don't agree that 'the time has come for this'. The time has come for us to demand that the violent criminals be punished - swiftly, severly, and with certainty. A small number of repeat offenders is responsible for the majority of violent crimes. Heres a bunch, all from 'Combating Violent Crime: 24 Recommendations to Strengthen Criminal Justice', US Dept of Justice, office of the Attorney General 7/28/92 From the cover letter, written by Attorney General William Barr: "The problem of violent crime in America is largely the problem of the repeat, violent offender. A small segment of our population is responsible for a large share of the violent crime. Study after study has identified a small group of hardened, chronic offenders who commit a staggering number of crimes -- well over one hundred a year for many of these violent predators." Pretrial release of violent felons, pg 2: "A study of pretrial release in 75 of the nations' most populous counties in 1988 found that 18% of released defendants were known to have been rearrested for the commission of a felony while on pretrial release. 2/3 of those rearrested while on release were again released" BJS 'Pretrial Release of Felony Defendants 1988' [1991] Lazar Institute 'Pretrial Release: an evaluation of Defendant Outcomes and Program Impact' [1981] Effective deterrence and punishment of adult offenders, pp 6-7: "It is no mystery why this is the case. Again and again, studies have indicated that a relatively small portion of the population is responsible for a large percentage of the criminal violence in this country. One California study found that 3.8% of a group of males born in 1956 were responsible for 55.5% of all serious felonies committed by the study group [5]. A Philadelphia cohort study conducted by Professor Marvin Wolfgang of UPenn found that about 7% of males in two birth cohorts (1945 and 1958) accounted for over 2/3 of all violent crimes commited by each group [6]." [5] from Robert Tillman 'Prevalence and Incidence of Arrest among Adult Males in California' [1987]. Study size was 236,000 men born in 1956 from ages 18-29. The study counted all FBI index crimes committed by the group - murder, nn manslaughter, rape robbery, agg. assault, burglary, larnecy and mv theft. [6] See PE Tracy, ME Wolfgang, RM Figlio 'Delinquency Careers in Two Birth Cohorts, pp 279-80' [1990] again, p 14: "Similarly, one study by the BATF of a group of career criminals found that each had committed an average of 160 crimes per year [21]. A 1982 Rand Corp study found that 24% of inmages surveyed admitted to having committed more than 135 crimes a year apiece, and about 10% claimed responsibility for over 600 crimes per year [22]." [21] BATF "Protecting America: the Effectiveness of the Federal Armed Career Criminal Statute" p 29 [1992] [22] Jan M. Chaiken, Marcia R. Chaiken "Varieties of Criminal Behaviour" p 215 [1982] Now, specifically addressing the UK, they enacted 'strict gun control laws' in the 1920s. They had a low violent crime rate before enacting controls, which continued afterwards. In other words, their violent crime rate wasn't affected by gun control laws; Canada has had much the same experience. You have to compare the before and after picture to determine if there was any effect. Now, can you find an example where violent crime rates dropped due to gun control laws? Lets see - Washington DC? Nope, passed handgun prohibition in '75 .. its among the most violent cities in the US - far outstripping the surrounding communities where firearms are legally available. The US passed extensive _federal_ laws in 1968; the violent crime rates didn't even blink, rising from 1960 to their peak in 1979; they then declined from 1980 to 1985, then rose again - although they are still below the 1979 rates. The drop in the early 1980s wasn't caused by new gun laws either .. While you contend that only federal laws will work, since its obvious that state and local laws are not effective, i don't see any evidence that this is so; take, for example, the notorously ineffective federal drug laws - and they deal with a consumable entity, one that must be replenished. |> NRA membership, and clout, has been dropping for years. A majority |> of Americans, in polls, favor something like this. So what's the law |> enforcement position? Actually, NRA membership has been growing [its about 3.1 million now, up from about the low 2.x million a couple of years ago]. Its the 3rd largest orgainization of its' sort - AARP and AAA have more members. The poll you refer to is based on work done by Lou Harris, who was funded by a anti-gun group to the tune of about $90k bucks. Of course he got the answer they wanted! The main question is extremely confusing: He asked: "Do you favor or oppose a federal law banning the ownership of all handguns, except those given permission by a court of law?" The addition of the phrase "except those given permission by a court of law," surely led some respondents to believe they were being asked about a handgun licensing law rather than a handgun ban. For instance, anyone in NY who owns a handgun [legally] has permission from the court. As for LE: heres an exerpt from a police magazine: Law Enforcement Technology July/August 1991 FROM THE EDITOR Of those readers responding to the Gun Control Survey questionnaire published in the March issue, 75 percent do not favor gun control legislation. Top management support it to a greater extent, with street officers opposing it by as much as 85%. Many wrote in to this effect, explaining their positions in great detail. We were impressed by the thought-provoking, eloquent letters we received from all over the country. I'd like to share with you some of the most resounding responses. "Gun control does not equal less crime," said many law enforcement professionals. No one is in support of violent crime. Many pointed to places with the strictest laws on the books--Washington and New York--that also have the highest crime rates. "Criminals will always get guns," say our readers, and they will get them as they always do--illegally. One officer suggested a federal law to prevent firearms purchases across state lines. We received a flurry of comments about the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms. The popular view is that the Second Amendment is "clear" and that "any infringement to that right is a blow to freedom." In regard to the wording of the Second Amendment: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, " one reader commented that "some people attempt to confuse the issue by melting the sentence together." Quite a few of those polled tempered their response of no limit by recommending that there should be some reasonable limit on firearms, i.e., for mentally unstable persons or convicted felons. "An automobile in the hands of an impaired driver" was a common response to the weapon you feel threatened by most. An inanimate object is nothing to fear but the criminal mind is frightening. Many non-firearms topped the most-feared weapon list including knives, baseball bats and bar glasses. In addition, others wryly suggested lawyers, reporters and congressmen. On a humorous note, one reader wrote: "My guess is that it would work out that an automobile accident is more than 10 times likely to kill you [than a gun]; and by actual statistics heart disease is 16 times more likely to kill you than an automobile accident. You are actually much safer ~an gun control advocates would like you to believe, just by staying away from greasy foods." Another reader summed up the gun control dilemma succinctly by saying, "I think the root of the problem we are facing and now trying to fix with more gun control laws is being overlooked. This root is the family structure and [lack of I morality prevalent in life in America. In the 19th century, the family structure was strong with its own deterrent influence of penalties, etcetera. Today's population . . . tries to legislate the conduct to the point where it restricts the rights of all the citizens." As for alternatives, recommendations for "mandatory imprisonment," "no plea bargaining," and "stiffer penalties" for those using a gun in the commission of a crime, were by far in the lead as popular responses. Other suggestions included "training schools similar to those found in Germany," "gun taxes," and "annual shooting re-qualification." All in all readers contend, it's time to get tough on the criminal not on the law-abiding citizen. Take a look at The Gun Control Survey on page 14.1 think you'll find it interesting and useful. And thanks for all your input. Donna Rogers Executive Editor LAW ENFORCEMENT TECHNOLOGY 445 Broad Hollow Road Suite 21 Melville, NY 11747 516-845-2700 FAX 845-7109 The following article appeared in: Law Enforcement Technology July/August 1991 75% of law enforcement professionals vehemently oppose gun control, according to the results of a poll of 2,000 police managers and street officers. Do you believe a citizen has the constitutional right to bear arms and any limit is an infringement of rights? Do you support a ban on concealed weapons? Do You support a ban on assault weapons? Do you support a waiting period for handgun purchases? Would you be in favor of a background check for firearms purchases if computerized? In your opinion, does gun control lessen crime? The Law Enforcement Technology GUN CONTROL SURVEY Nearly 2,000 of Law Enforcement Technology's 25,000 subscribers have responded to the "Gun Control Survey" published in the March issue of the magazine. Responses to the survey--which may be the only one of its kind--show that 77.4% of the police chiefs, sheriffs, law enforcement top and middle managers and street officers who responded believe citizens have a constitutional right to bear arms and that gun control would infringe on this right. Most cited the 2nd Amendment, and the need for citizens to be able to defend themselves against "criminals, an invading army or a tyrannical government." Overall, the majority of respondents (84.6%) feel that gun control does not lessen crime, and many (78.2%) expressed the opinion that "criminals will always get guns." Most of those who commented on the question agreed with one respondent, who noted, "Gun control will only affect those who abide by the law. Criminals, by their very nature, do not abide by laws--they break them." Of those responding, 21.1% were chiefs, sheriffs or top management; 37.1% were middle management; and 41.8% were street officers. All three groups were overwhelmingly against a ban on assault weapons (78.7%), and 92.9% felt that handguns should be used by private citizens for personal protection. A ban on concealed weapons was supported by only 37.5%, with those against it (62.5%) concluding, "it's too restrictive," and "punishes the good majority for the acts of a few." Respondents repeatedly pointed out that gun control laws "don't address the real issue of crime--the criminal," and many asserted the need for "enforcement of existing laws" and "mandatory jail sentences" with "no plea bargaining." Survey participants questioned "Why are lawmakers afraid of tough sentences?" and many asserted the need to limit paroles, and curtail probation and work release programs. Of those surveyed, 78.5% are in favor of a computerized background check on those purchasing firearms. "This system could work, but only if we had a national computer clearinghouse shared state to state," said one officer. (But only 44.2% support a waiting period prior to handgun purchases, because "criminals have no waiting period.") Although the survey was brief and concise, many of those who filled it out felt so strongly about the subject of gun control that they expanded their responses into lengthy letters--detailing the reasons they are against it. In general, those surveyed felt that efforts to restrict gun control have not been successful in the past and they pointed out that some of the states with the strictest gun statutes have high crime rates anyway. Whether laws restrict gun purchases or not, they said, guns are still available illegally on the street. "When Cain killed Abel, I don't think he used an AK-47. Crime will happen, weapon or not," said one respondent. But others felt stiffer penalties, mandatory sentences and enforcement of "hundreds of gun laws " already on the books could help deter crime. Overall, they said, the answer is gun control by stiffer enforcement. not more gun control legislation. Compiled by the LET.staff and Horizon Research, Inc. July/August 1991- Law Enforcement Technology [thanks to Larry Cipriani for the article] As for the 4yr supply of ammo, i think you've fallen into the Daniel Patrick Moynihan trap - ammunition: (a) lasts on the shelf for years (b) is readily manufactured with fairly rudimentary tools (c) would be available from other sources such as - rougue police employees - theft from police/military - smuggling: the criminal market doesn't demand lots of ammunition to function quite well IMHO, Sen Chafee and Pell have done both sides of this argument a grave disservice; they have managed to further polarize people. Their bill is de-facto proof to many that the "we don't want to ban them" line just isn't true - they _do_ want to ban handguns. Theres lots more details, of course.. please feel free to point, and i'll try to provide more as needed. BTW, check out: POINT BLANK Guns and Violence in America Gary Kleck 1991 Aldine De Gruyter, New York ISBN 0-202-30419-1 6x9 512+xv pp. clothbound $expensive but worth it Its about the most recent and comprehensive work i've found yet. Followups to talk.politics.guns -- Michael Phelps, (external) [m j p] at [vnet.ibm.com] .. (internal) [m j p] at [bwa.kgn.ibm.com] .. mjp at kgnvmc (and last but not least a disclaimer) These opinions are mine..