From: [k--ar--s] at [cc.memphis.edu]
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: 60 Minutes with DiFi (transcript)
Date: 8 Feb 95 01:59:19 -0500
CBS-TV _60 Minutes_
What Assault Weapons Ban?
produced by Rome Hartman
aired 2/5/95
Lesley Stahl (in studio): When you spend time at a
gun show, as we did last week, it's difficult to figure
out_why_the National Rifle Association is mounting such a
vigorous campaign to repeal the banning of assault
weapons. Maybe nobody told them, but assault weapons
are_still_for sale, no matter what the President's crime
bill decrees. They're being sold by the_thousands._ One
gun dealer in Louisville, Bill Perkins, even goes so far
as to call the ban "a joke." [cut to Bill Perkins' gun
store]
Bill Perkins: As far as the ban doing what it was
intended to do... it's silly. It's not doin' it. It's
not_gonna_do it.
Stahl [voiceover]: Perkins says that the minute it
looked like the ban would pass, people who
never_thought_about an assault weapon rushed out,
determined not to let the government tell them what
they_couldn't_have. And_bought_one. Or_two.._
Perkins: Clinton and that administration's been good
to the gun business.
Stahl [interviewing Perkins]: Clinton's been_good_to
the gun business.
Perkins: He's been... he's been one of the best
salespeople around. No doubt.
Stahl: Bill Clinton?
Perkins: Sure.
Stahl: When he signed the assault weapons ban, you're
saying that_that_act itself spurred the sort of...
Perkins: That act did_more_to put more firearms out
there on the streets...
[Reaction shot of Stahl looking dejected]
Perkins: ...as far as in the hands of citizens. He
accomplished what gun dealers have tried to accomplish
for years, and that is to get these sales_up._
Stahl: So it's like an_advertisement?_ Is that what
you're saying?
Perkins: That's_all_it was.
Stahl: But why would...
Perkins: It was the best advertising campaign you
could imagine!
[cut to Lesley Stahl at Miami Gun show]
Stahl: Advertising_so_good that it made 1994 the best
year for gun sales in a_generation,_ and the best year
for the sales of assault weapons ever. And yet, even
with that uprecedented_demand,_there is still an
enourmous_supply_of these so-called "banned" guns
available, and it's all legal. At this Miami gun show,
there are literally hundreds and hundreds of the AR-15,
like this [picks up AR-15 from display table], the TEC-9,
and all the others on the ban list. And this is
just_one_show in_one_city._
Stahl [voiceover]: Now, why are all these guns still
legal to sell? Because_they_were made_before_the law
took effect last September. The ban lists 19 guns that
can't be made or imported anymore. But those already in
circulation? They're fine. [cut to footage of President
Clinton's speech] So when President Clinton signed the
bill and said:
President Clinton: We will finally ban these assault
weapons from our streets that have no purpose other...
than.. to... _kill!_
Stahl [voiceover]: ...it was a good applause line,
but these "banned" weapons are still_everywhere,_on_the
streets, in gun shops, advertised in every gun
publication, and at gun shows all over the country. [cut
to Bob Smith at Miami gun show] Bob Smith is the
promoter of the Miami show.
Bob Smith: Right now, there is so much product on the
market it's actually overwhelming. The prices are
falling in some cases.
Stahl [interviewing Smith]: Would you call it
a_glut?_
Smith: In a way, yeah. Exactly.
Stahl: That is almost the opposite... I won't say
almost... that_is_the opposite of what was intended by
the ban.
Smith: It's had an opposite effect, absolutely.
Stahl: Can you_guess_how many of these assault
weapons are out there for sale right now? Are... are we
talking hundreds of thousands?
Smith: At_least_that many.
Stahl [voiceover]: Actually, the government estimates
that the_total_number in circulation is closer to
a_million_and_a_half._
[cut to Bob Perkins' gun shop]
Perkins: I presume that most of the distributors and
manufacturers saw this thing coming. It's sort of like
playing the stock market. You're taking a_bet_whether...
"will they be banned or will they not be banned." And if
you hedge your bets by, you know, stockpiling these
things, gettin' them in the warehouse, gettin' 'em
manufactured, gettin' 'em stamped_before_the enactment of
the bill and if they_are_in fact banned, then you're
gonna come out on top.
Stahl: And some did that?
Perkins: Sure they did.
Stahl [voiceover, footage of Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-
CA) at podium, holding up an AK-47]: California Senator
Dianne Feinstein worked for more than a year to get the
assault weapons bill passed, in the face of ferocious
opposition from the National Rifle Association. She says
she got the_best_she could. [cut to Sen. Dianne
Feinstein's office]
Sen. Dianne Feinstein: If I could have gotten 51
votes in the Senate of the United States for
an_out_right_ban, picking up every one of them... "Mr.
and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in," I would have done it.
I_could_not do that. The votes weren't here.
Stahl [interviewing Feinstein]: But are you worried
that it got watered down so much that it's lost
its_real_effectiveness?
Feinstein: Let me... let me tell you, there is
a_very_potent part of this legislation and it is the ban
on the maufacture and sale of clips of more than ten
bullets.
Stahl [voiceover, footage of gun show display table
piled high with high-capacity magazines]: But just as
with the guns, it's not so potent after all, because all
magazines or clips manufactured before last September are
perfectly legal to own, buy, and sell, no matter how many
bullets they hold. Ten... 20... 30... _50._ And there
are_mountains_of them out there.
Unidentified Magazine Dealer: So I might have what's
on this table, there may be... hundreds of thousands of
more mags just like 'em that are still pre-ban date.
Stahl [interviewing dealer]: So if I wanted to buy a
gun with 30 rounds, or 50, or 20, I wouldn't have any
trouble?
Dealer: Not at all.
Stahl: How?
Dealer: It's not against the law.
Stahl: Because these were made before.
Dealer: Right.
Stahl: But is there just an endless supply of these
mags with more than ten rounds?
Dealer: Actually,_yes._
Stahl [voiceover]: To make sure that supply remains
endless, some gun distributors have come up with a
creative strategy. They're trying to get old pre-ban
magazines back from_cops_to be resold to the public,
because the law applies to_all_magazines, including those
for pistols. [cut to photo of gun-swap flyer] The flyer
sent to police chiefs offers to make an even swap: brand
new pistols and magazines in exchange for the police
departments' used ones.
[cut to Louisville, KY police chief Doug Hamilton's
office]
Doug Hamilton: At first, of course, it seems to
violate the first law of fraud, you know "if it sounds
too good to be true, it probably is"... (laughs)
Stahl [voiceover]: Doug Hamilton is the police chief
in Louisville, Kentucky. He got the swap offer from his
local distributor, Kiesler Police Supply.
Stahl [interviewing Hamilton]: They were trying to
get around this_ban_because they could sell_your_gun...
Hamilton: They could sell our weapon...
Stahl: ...with the 15 rounds...
Hamilton: ...and they could sell our magazine, out on
the street, retail over the counter, and it was strictly,
like I say, legal.
Stahl [voiceover, footage of police on indoor firing
range]: Legal because the law says that new magazines
that hold more than ten bullets can be made_only_if
they're sold to law enforcement, while the others can be
sold to anyone. That's why gun dealers are so eager to
get the old 15, 17 or 20 round clips back from the
police.
Stahl [interviewing Hamilton, handing him a double-
stack pistol mag]: And this is what the manufacturer
(sic) wants when he offers you a swap. This is the
thing.
Hamilton: In the final analysis, that was the thing
in Louisville, Kentucky that was wanted by the
distributor... was our magazines. 2,100 of 'em.
Stahl [voiceover, exterior of Kiesler Police Supply]:
The owner of Kiesler Police Supply wouldn't talk to us on
camera, but defended the offer as a simple and legal
business deal. [cut to photo of ad in gun magazine]
Several police departments have taken them up on it, and
police trade-ins are_already_on gun shop shelves.
Hamilton: I thought for us to participate in it,
would be a violation of the spirit of the law.
Stahl [interviewing Hamilton]: But what about for
them to make the offer?
Hamilton: I think that they're just exploiting a
loophole.
Stahl: The obvious question is... there... the
police gun that gets traded,_could_turn around and be
sold to someone who goes out and shoots a policeman.
Hamilton: Sure. There's no doubt about that, there's
no doubt about that. That's the worst case scenario and
the greatest fear.
[cut to Sen. Diane Feinstein's office]
Feinstein: Does this violate the spirit and intent of
the law? _Absolutely._ Should they be doing this? _No._
And, I think it does say that there are craven interests
out there who simply wanna use this legislation to
profiteer wherever they possibly can, and I can assure
you if I can figure a way to stop it, I'll try to do
that.
Stahl [voiceover]: Senator Feinstein thought she had
figured out a way to stop another problem. She wrote
something called a "physical features" test into the law,
designed to keep gun makers from turning their banned
guns into legal ones by making just a few minor changes.
The law bans any new gun that has two or more of the
these military-style features: [closeup of hand pointing
out features on gun show table] a pistol grip, a folding
stock, a bayonet mount, a flash supressor, or a grenade
launcher.
Feinstein: It also, in its physical features test, is
aimed at copycats, and one of the things that we found
was if you just_ban_19 specific weapons, suddenly
the_name_changes, and instead of an AK-47 you have a
Mitchell this, or a Norinco that. And to a great extent
we get at this.
Stahl [voiceover, footage of Norinco MAK-90 rifle]:
But once agian, the ban has backfired. Five months after
it took effect, the copycats are_already_out. [cut to
photo graphics] This is the TEC-22, banned by the
assault weapons bill. This is the new Sport 22 from the
same manufacturer. The only difference? The new gun has
no threads on the barrel. [return to footage of the MAK-
90] The ban_specifically_outlaws the AK-47, but it
doesn't do anything about the_M_AK-90.
Stahl [interviewing unidentified dealer at Miami gun
show about the MAK-90]: Isn't this exactly the same gun
as the AK-47?
Dealer: It's very similar.
Stahl: What's different? Can you show me?
Dealer: It's got a thumbhole stock, which is
necessary for importation, and it does not have a
bayonet.
Stahl [pointing]: No bayonet, which would have gone
here...
Dealer [pointing]: Which would have gone here.
Stahl: And, it's just a different grip, really...
Dealer: Exactly.
[cut to Bill Perkins' gun shop]
Perkins: One of the most ludicrous things I think
that I'm aware of is banning the bayonets on the end of a
rifle...
[reaction shot of Stahl nodding]
Perkins: That's a knife blade. Why ban that in the
first place? You mean, if someone walks in with, you
know, one of these alias assault-type weapons, and it has
a blade, you're going to look to see if it has a knife
before you get scared? I mean, it doesn't make any
sense!
Stahl [voiceover, footage of Colt assembly line]:
People in the gun business say Congress asked for what's
happening by writing a_cosmetics_law, focusing on how
guns_look_rather than how they shoot. Colt, based in
Connecticut, is one of America's oldest gunmakers. Ron
Whittaker is president. [cut to Ron Whittaker's office]
Ron Whittaker: We had a crime bill that was supposed
to focus on crime, and hopefully, criminals. We end up
with an assault weapons ban that has nothing to do with
defining assault weapons, but it had a lot to do with
what something looks like.
Stahl [voiceover, footage of Colt AR-15 Sporter]: No
question, Colt's Sporter rifle looks menacing. It failed
the features test because it has both a pistol grip, and
a flash supressor on the end of the barrel. [cut to
photo of Colt Match Target brochure] They can't legally
make it anymore. So now they make the Match Target. Can
you tell the difference? No flash supressor on the
end...
[cut to Sen. Dianne Feinstein's office]
Stahl [showing Colt brochure to Feinstein]: And now,
it will be legally sold, with a new name, and this tiny
little feature on the end removed.
Feinstein: Well, that's true.
Stahl: Well, what is your reaction whenI tell you
this? Are you... I mean, you wrote this legislation
in_such_good faith, and both you and all the other
people, the police chiefs...
Feinstein: My reaction is that there is a
very_craven_set of people out there who are going to
essentially traffic in these arms if they can, one way or
another.
[cut to Colt president Whittaker's office]
Stahl [interviewing Whittaker]: The charge is, that
you are basically taking advantage of a loophole in the
law, basically subverting the spirit of what Congress
intended, which was to get this gun off the streets. So,
what's your answer to that?
Whittaker: Well, that's flat out not true. They
passed a cosmetic law, and now they're sitting back
saying "oh, woe is me... people are changing the
cosmetics!" I don't understand that logic!
Stahl [voiceover]: Whether he understands the logic
or not, the law doesn't seem to be working. Take the
TEC-9, made by Intratec of Miami. It has shown up
several times on the government's top ten list of guns
used in crime. It's small and easily concealable, and
comes standard with a 32 bullet clip. It's banned by
name in the assault weapons law.
[cut to Bill Perkins' gun shop]
Perkins: Not exactly known to be well made... but
since the ban, all the sudden it's become quite
desirable. Now it's the... mysterious item that
everybody wants to come look at and buy...
Stahl [interviewing Perkins]: Because it's banned.
Perkins: ...because it's banned. Exactly.
Stahl [voiceover, footage of trade show]: It'll be a
long time before gun dealers run out of old TEC-9s, but
when they do, Intratec is ready. They're displaying a
new, slightly altered version that they're calling the
AB-10.
[cut to Sen. Feinstein's office]
Stahl [interviewing Feinstein]: Do you have any idea
what AB stands for?
Feinstein: No... no...
Stahl: After ban. And they're selling it with the
old clip... [of] 32 rounds, they're actually_selling_the
new gun with the 32 round...
Feinstein: ...with the 32 round...
Stahl: ...that was manufactured before.
Feinstein: Well... ah... I'll take a good look at
that. If their attitude is just to thumb their nose at
67% of the American people who are supporting something
with a view that it's gonna get these guns off the
street... If they're gonna violate that, then Congress
needs to see that.
Stahl: But would you admit that because of the
composition of the new Congress, that it's unlikely that
you're going to get any_more_gun control laws passed, in
_this_Congress.
Feinstein: Oh, I think that's true. In this
Congress.
Stahl: So no going forward?
Feinstein: I think that's true.
---END
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