Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: [an 59696] at [anon.penet.fi] (devildog)
Date: Tue,  8 Feb 1994 07:00:46 UTC
Subject: PBS Documentary, Gun Buybacks

Moderator:
First tonight, an new twist in the fight 
against gun violence , gun swaps.  In 
cities across the country, people are 
turning guns in to authorities in 
exchange for cash, toys, sporting 
ticket, or the like.  Some people say it 
is a waste of time, others think it is a 
valuable step towards eliminating some 
of the 200 million firearms in private 
hands.  Well examine that,  after this 
backgrounder by Tom Berdin.

Tom Berdin:
Two weeks ago new york  languishing gun 
swap program got a major boost when a 
new york city business man donated 5000 
dollars to exchange toys for guns.  The 
offer caught the attention of a new york 
city messenger named joey. he decided to 
swap his shotgun, which had been laying 
around the house for 20 years, for a 
more immediate need. 75 dollars cash, 
and 100 dollars in gasoline. "couldn't 
move the gun or touch the gun, , because 
it was an illegal gun,so now I got an 
opportunity to get it out of the house 
and get some gas money."  By offering 
gift certificates and cash the exchange 
program collected 1235 firearms in the 
last 14 days. Police unions, the NAACP, 
and private individuals, and companies 
have contributed money to expand the 
program further.  Well you can see we 
have a load of riffles, semi automatic 
riffles, shotguns, some sawed off 
shotguns, this is a sawed off shotgun, 
that would be used by someone doing some 
sort of stickup,revolvers, this is a 38 
revolver" For gun owners, the programs 
are a way to make some money, with no 
questions asked. For those who finance 
them, it is a way to feel like they are 
making a difference in the fight against 
crime.  skeptics ask if 1200 odd weapons 
can really make a difference in a city 
with over 1,000,000 guns. by inspector 
joe espizedo thinks the gun swaps are a 
step in the right direction.  "Every 
gun, that is in a home, is a potential 
problem. if we can stop one kid from 
going into his fathers nigh table, and 
taking out that 25 caliber automatic, 
and fooling around with it, and shooting 
someone, then the whole program is a 
success"  New york program isn't unique, 
over the past several years other cities  
with funding from private businesses 
have initiated similar efforts.  
but there has been an increase in the 
number of such programs recently, as a 
response to the rising numbers of 
firearms deaths. the FBI reports 
firearms  murders have jumped annually, 
by over 9%.  in denver, gun owners have 
been offered tickets to football, 
basketball, and baseball games.  210 
weapons were recovered on three exchange 
days.  The lure football tickets in 
dallas brought in 168 guns in three 
weeks.  Team members pushed the program. 
"remember, real cowboys don't carry 
guns"  In los angles over 400 weapons 
were brought into area churches after 
ticket masters pledged two free tickets 
to concerts and sporting events. assault 
rifles, shotguns, and handguns were 
turned in.  some residents dropped of 
weapons for other reasons than just 
money.  Morton Roberts said "I have  a 
pretty big family, and we have a lot of 
family functions and I was always leery 
about my little cousins coming over and 
playing in my room, because I had those 
guns in there, and didn't want any 
accidents to happen, so it is sort of a 
good thing, for both future prevention, 
and myself for the concert tickets."  
Given the publicity of the current gun 
swap programs, their cities are 
searching for sponsors, in order to set 
up their own exchanges.

Moderator:
five different perspectives now on these 
gun swaps .  Rubin Greenberg is the 
chief of police in Charleston South 
Carolina, Clarence Harmon is the chief 
of police in Saint Louis.  Adele 
Harrell, Urban Institute is the senior 
research associate at the urban 
institute, a sociologist, she focuses on 
crime and drug related issues.  
Lawerence Sherman is a professor of 
criminology at the university of 
maryland, he is also the president of 
the crime control institute.  he joins 
us tonight from indianapolis. And 
Fernando Matoya, who we just saw, is the 
new york city businessman who originated 
the toys for guns program in manhattans 
34th prescient. he is now in los-angles 
where he hopes to duplicate the program.

Mr Matoya, how did you get this idea?

Fernando Matoya:
The idea came from my 14 year old son.  
We were watching a football game and we 
switched channels and we turned to a 
channel where four people had just 
gotten shot, two fatally, and two 
seriously wounded in the washington 
heights area, but that same week, a kid 
playing russian roulette blew his head 
of with his fathers gun and a young 
lady, 12 years old, blew her head off 
when she found out her mother had aids.  
These were all weapons that were kept in 
closets like most people were saying, 
and that now we are hoping to get them 
off the streets.

Moderator:
So how did the idea come from your 14 
year old son

Fernando Matoya:
He said dad if I had to exchange 
whatever gifts or presents he was going 
to get for christmas for an illegal 
weapon, I would do that, I would make 
that sacrifice, so I went to bed that 
night thinking about what he had said, 
and listing to what he had said and  at 
four in the morning I wrote toys for 
guns when I got up to go to the 
bathroom.

Moderator:
And how did you get it started?

Fernando Matoya:
Well the flowing day I went to a toys 
are us and I charged 2500 dollars on my 
master card and I called up my local 
councilman jim annotates? who represents 
the washington heights area and he told 
me that he would first get an ok from 
the police commissioner before we 
proceeded and once we got the ok we went 
to the police precinct where everyone 
laughed, everyone thought it was a joke, 
everyone said you will be lucky to get 
two or three guns and if you get that 
many its successful.  shortly after that 
the guns started to come in and today as 
of 25 minuets ago we had received 1375 
weapons in 12 days, and there is a 
waiting line, there are people with 
ticket waiting to return their pieces   
we are talking heavy artillery, 9mm , 
uzi's, submachene guns, tech nines, 45 
automatics, sawed off shotguns, assault 
riffles, were talking high powerful 
stuff here.

Moderator:
your now in La, What are the problems in 
trying to get a similar program going 
there.

Fernando Matoya:
well I didn't come specifically to bring 
the program here immediately, I came to 
find out and to visit with the council 
members who welcomed us very warmly, and 
get them to understand what they need to 
put in place for this program to 
work.every town, every city, every 
community has their own needs, and 
yesterday we spent the day in the hoods, 
we spoke to the city council, we spoke 
to the deputy mayor we got the 
endorsement of the deputy police chief, 
and we are hoping that within the next 
couple of weeks we may be able to bring 
the program and implement it here.

Moderator:
Well lets here how a couple of other 
police chiefs in other cities feel about 
this, Chief Greenburg, I understand that 
you think these swaps are really a waste 
of time is that right?

Chief Ruben Greenberg, Charleston Police 
Department:
well from the law enforcement 
perspective, The answer to that is yes, 
from the law enforcement perspective 
these swaps are to me a waste of time.  
Mr Matoya is certainly to be commended 
for being interested in his community to 
the extent that he is willing to put up 
substantial amounts of his money in 
order to reduce the amounts of guns. Of 
course there will be some benefit, that 
the child might get ahold to or a gun 
that might be left to someone else to 
find or use in an unlawful way, that 
part is good, but I am much more 
interested, as a law enforcement 
officer, by the gun that is being held 
and carried around by the convicted 
felon, or the gun that is being carried 
on the school bus or brought to school. 
because these are the guns that really 
injure people, and not necessarily the 
guns that have been in the top shelf or 
the hall closet for the last 15 years.

Moderator:
an chief harmon in saint louis, you see 
it more positively I believe.  

Chief Clarence Harmon, St. Louis Police 
Department:
absolutely, our experience here in st. 
louis was a very positive experience.  
in 30 days we took in 8749 guns. in   
and we were getting the kind of guns you 
have heard Mr. Matoya describe, the kind 
of guns that are often stolen from  the 
homes of law abiding people in our 
community. taken into the streets and 
used in all sorts of crime.  It is that 
kind of gun that I think responsible law 
enforcement officials are after as you 
heard my college say.

Moderator:
But he said it didn't get any guns out 
of the hands of criminals?

Chief Clarence Harmon, St. Louis Police 
Department:
No, I think otherwise, it think again 
the data shows that it is that kind of 
weapon often that is stolen. we ran a 
study prior to implementing our gun buy 
back program to see where the people we 
were taking into custody were getting 
their weapons and a lot of them were 
being stolen, from the homes again of 
law-abiding citizens. a lot of them of 
course were being trafficked in by 
unscrupulous gun dealers, but we had no 
illusions about getting guns from guys 
on the streets.  We recognize that it is 
guns in the homes that are often used in 
the heat of passion, that are often 
picked up by a child and misused often 
stolen and taken onto the street , was 
those kinds of guns we were after and I 
think we were successful.

Moderator:
You want to come back at that chief 
greenburg?

Chief Ruben Greenberg, Charleston Police 
Department:
Yes, the kind of guns used in domestic 
violence cases, homicides where people 
know each other, there will be some 
degree of effectiveness through Mr. 
Matoyas program, but I really think it 
is going to be much limited there. The 
reason that people are scared of guns in 
this country is not because the guys 
wife down the street shoots her husband, 
the reason they are afraid of these guns 
is because of the drive by shootings, 
the armed robberies, the sexual assaults 
accompanied by firearms, and other 
things. I think that is really the 
engine that is driving the real 
increasing crime in our country.

Moderator:
Lets go to our two criminologists here, 
mr. sherman, how valuable do you think 
these swap programs are.


Lawerence Sherman, University of 
Maryland:
I think they are one leg of a three 
legged stool, and with that one leg it 
will not stand up by itself. But the 
other two legs are to ban the sale of 
new guns, that would replace these guns 
if the market demand stays constant, and 
then to do what chief greenburg talks 
about which is to take the guns away 
from the high risk criminals, especially 
kids, who are likely to use them in the 
commission of a crime. so if we ban them 
buy them back and then bust them, I 
think we can make a big impact on the  
gun violence in america, but the amount 
of money that private funds can raise 
are a drop in the bucket.  If we have 
200 million guns out there, 100 million 
hand guns, perhaps some 30 million semi-
automatic pistols, it is clearly beyond 
the scope of voluntary funds to buy them 
back. But at 2 billion per year in 
health care costs  from gun shot wounds, 
we could pay back the cost of a 
government buy back program, of some 50 
billion dollars or so , in about 25 
years.  That seems to be good economics 
to me, and I think that the strong 
support that this program has gotten 
indicates the readiness of americans to 
give up guns that they've got in 
exchange for a reasonable buy back 
program.

Moderator:
In other words your suggesting take 2 
billion dollars a year, for 25 years out 
of the health care budget, and apply it 
to buying back guns. is that what you 
are saying?

Lawerence Sherman, University of 
Maryland:
Well, I want to buy the house first and 
then pay mortgage, lets put up 50 
billion dollars this year and pay back 2 
billion a year for the next 25.

Moderator: 
I see, Ms. Harrol, what do you think 
about these programs.

Adele Harrell, Urban Institute:
I think the answer to controlling 
destructive behavior, like gun 
ownership, lies in  lies in personal 
decisions not to have guns around.  I 
think that these programs are promising 
because the provide the opportunity to 
change public consciesness and are 
potent symbols of the fact that we are 
getting tired of guns in our community.  
I think that the kind of gun swap that 
Mr. Matoya is permoteing is particularly 
likely to be effective for two reasons, 
one is that he is putting up his private 
funds, and that, and or, and companies 
are putting up their private funds. Even 
more than police department buy backs 
this says to people, we care  about what 
is happening in our community 
the second  reason I think that this 
kind of program might be particularly 
effective is it is asking for a 
particular sort of behavioral response 
on the part of people, bring in your 
guns,
and we know from lots of studies of 
human behavior that once people have 
taken a positive step towards a goal 
they remain more committed towards that 
goal.  So I see the value of these 
programs in stimulating continued public 
concern about the problem.

Moderator:
so you think that even though the 
numbers are relatively small, the 
symbolic value is high,

Adele Harrell, Urban Institute:
yes, I do, I think if you think of what 
has gone on in the reduction in for 
example cigarette smoking in this 
country you have a combination of 
legislation, regulation, taxation, but 
you also have had tremendous changes in 
public opinion about the harmfulness of 
the behavior. And I see this as a step 
in establishing this kind  of gun 
ownership around the house as harmful.
Moderator:
what do you think about that mr. sherman

Lawerence Sherman, University of 
Maryland:
Well I think the symbolic point is very 
important but we have to recognize that 
in the short run, we run the risk that 
kids are going to start steeling the 
guns out of peoples homes in order to 
bring them into the buy back program, we 
run the risk that there will be a 
replacement of less powerful guns such 
as 6 shot revolvers with semiautomatics 
which then can do more harm, we have to 
recognize that while these people are 
giving their guns up, many more people 
are flocking to the gun store, since the 
brady bill has been passed, and gun 
sales are surging in this country, as 
they never have been before, and I think 
the danger that we will in fact upgrade 
the level of the gun stock and make it 
more lethal is something that we have to 
seriously consider as an unintended way 
in which this very well meant program 
might backfire.  

Moderator: 
I don't quite follow you logic, would 
you spell it out for me why would this 
result in upgrading the quality or 
firepower of the gunstock.

Lawerence Sherman, University of 
Maryland:
Well, while their are examples of very 
powerful guns being turned in, there are 
also i'm sure six shooters, I know that 
in st. louis some of them were antique 
guns, not even working I am told. And 
the problem is if you get the money for 
giving that up, and then buy a 16 shot, 
a 18 shot semiautomatic pistol of the 
kind that was on the long island 
railroad,  the chances of causing a 
murder with that new gun that was bought 
with the funds that were used to buy 
back that old gun, are greatly 
increased. and so that's the long term 
risk of this kind of program sucking the 
lower quality guns that would be 
replaced with, perhaps over half of the 
pistols being sold are semi-automatics 
and that is not true of the gun stock.

Moderator:
Mr Matoya, what do you think about think 
of that objection, people are bringing 
in older, less effective guns, and may 
use the money to go out and buy better 
ones.

Fernando Matoya:
Personally I think that is a way of 
looking at the glass half empty rather 
than half full.  I think a gun off the 
street is a gun off the street 
regardless what type of gun it is. It 
may be the gun that could save your 
family, your friends, and my family 
pain.  The weapon that was used in the 
long island railroad shooting was used 
by a gentleman that had never been in 
trouble with the law, it was a 9mm that 
was sitting in his closet, he had lost 
his job, he was depressed, he felt 
people were responsible for his fall 
down, and he went out and shot 20 people 
with his gun.  So I don't really look at 
this as being an issue of whose 
returning what kind of gun, lets the 
guns off the street, lets think 
positive, lest think you know hope, lets 
bring hope into our communities by 
telling these people bring in whatever 
you have and we will accept it.  What we 
need right now is corporate support.  I 
was speaking with Mayor Juliani in New 
York when he delivered $5000 to me, and 
I said to Mr Juliani, it costs us 
$60,000 to keep a kid in jail.  If a kid 
gets caught with a gun, he is going in 
for a year, and it is going to  cost us 
$60,000, what's cheeper, paying this guy 
a few hundred dollars and getting his 
gun back, or incarcerating as many 
people as we can get with guns for 
$60,000 per year.

Moderator:
Ok, that's good, let me ask chief 
greenburg, what do you propose in place 
of swap, you have a plan I believe.

Chief Ruben Greenberg, Charleston Police 
Department:
Ya well we all know that the 
disadvantages of having a hand gun in 
the home far outweigh the advantages, 
but people have to be persuaded to give 
up their guns.  And that, of course 
might be another.. And more likely to do 
so for cash, as mr matoya has indicated.  
However what I would purpose and what we 
are working on to accomplish here is to 
simply utilize the existing resources 
that we have, for example crime 
stoppers.  Were going to start very soon 
a campaign where we will give $50 to 
anyone, or some other amount of money 
along that line, to anyone who reports a 
person who has an illegal gun, and the 
police actually, using of course proper 
constitutional guarantees, probable 
cause and so forth, We actually go out 
and find a person in possession of an 
illegal gun, And we are able to get that 
gun, and that person was compensated for 
it the usual crime stoppers fashion, 
which is anonymous.  To me that would do 
a lot more in a law enforcement sense, 
and less so in a symbolic sense.  It 
would be more than just symbolic in 
would be practical in order to reduce 
the incidence of guns.  We talk about 
getting guns of the streets, but getting 
guns off of the street is one problem, 
but getting people to voluntarily give 
up guns that are in the hall closet that 
is another problem.

Moderator:
Chief harmon, what do you think of that 
idea?

Chief Clarence Harmon, St. Louis Police 
Department:
well I think that we need to do as much 
as we can by any means(whoops, this guy 
is a Nazi, huh) legal means necessary to 
get as many of these weapons off the 
street. And again in reference to Dr. 
Shermans concern about people upgrading 
their weaponry as the result of gun buy 
back programs, we didn't experience any 
of that here in st. louis.  What we were 
seeing is exactly the kind of problem 
that Mr. Matoya has related to.  We were 
seeing mothers of young men bringing in 
weapons that they had identified as guns 
that their young sons had at home and 
they were afraid they would get in 
trouble with.  One woman came in and 
admired that she had bought a weapon 
with the intent of wanting to shoot her 
husband, but rather she turned it into 
us. Its that kind of thing that, 
and repeatedly we are seeing that type 
of crime occur when young men are out on 
the streets armed with weapons that they 
have gotten illegally or taken from 
home, and using them in crimes, and 
again we are seeing crimes of passion 
frequently all over this country. and I 
think we do those kinds of things that 
heighten public awareness over the issue 
of gun violence and I think get the 
public involved, senceerly involved in 
this kind of effort for the first time 
in a long time, because we have felt 
paralysed in this country for too long a 
period of time over our inability to  
effect gun violence.


Moderator:
Ms Harrel, as someone who studies 
peoples behavior, what do you think of 
the idea of paying people 50 bucks to 
report on people with illegal firearms.

Adele Harrell, Urban Institute:
I wonder seriously if it will work, I 
think studies of why, at least youths 
that report that they have guns is that 
they have them for protection, and 
whether or not they would snitch on 
friends I think the concern about being 
a snitch or reprisals would be so 
serious in many of those situations that 
you might get a limited response to such 
a program and it really doesn't achieve 
the major objective which I think of 
this program which is not necessarily to 
try remove all the guns on the street, 
there are many options for that.  There 
are programs like the brady bill other 
options for regulating handgun access.  
I think that you really need to do is 
build commitment to gun control and I 
don't think that kind of program does 
that as much.

Moderator:
Chief Greenburg, what about this fear of 
reprisals for snitches?

Chief Ruben Greenberg, Charleston Police 
Department:
Well, that is the reason why I would 
like to use the existing crime stoppers 
program that we have here in Charleston 
and by the way exists throughout the 
country.  Because it is a fully 
confidential program, it already exists 
it doesn't have to be invented. It has a 
track record and a very good track 
record for keeping their sources of 
information anonymous. Ultimately the 
real test as to whether or not any of 
these programs work is whether or not it 
reduces criminal victimization 
throughout the use of guns on the 
street.  And again I want to stress 
again that I think it is much more 
important to get the gun actually off 
the street, from the convicted felon or 
from the kid in the school, or in the 
school ground, or in the school bus, or 
others that have guns illegally than to 
get the gun that has been the hall 
closet for the last 16 years, I don't 
see that as adding very much to 
preventing additional criminal 
victimization

Moderator:
Professor sherman proposes banning semi-
automatic pistols, how would you do that 
mr sherman. What would you, I mean you 
would have to pass a law in the 
congress.  Do you think the political 
climate would buy that today?

Lawerence Sherman, University of 
Maryland:
The congress is very close to doing it, 
there is a bill, right now that lists 
specific weapons that are called assault 
weapons.
All we have to do is write that in a way 
that would make any semi-automatic 
weapon an assault weapon, and I think 
the growing political sentiment in this 
country certainly increased by the long 
island railroad shooting is that those 
guns are assault weapons, they are 
certainly not made for hunting.  And I 
think that the moderate proposals to 
limit the number of bullets in the 
magazine to limit the number of bullets 
in the magazine to 10 bullets which 
Governor Quomo and others have 
suggested, I think really misses the 
point, because I think that 10 bullets 
fired very rapidly in a spray pattern 
can vastly increase the risk of death in 
a shooting incident.  That is why the 
homicide rate among juveniles in this 
country doubled in this country from 
1985 to 1989 because the nature of the 
shooting changed from single shoot to 
spray action.  Semi-automatics I think 
are the leading cause of the increase in 
homicide, that is a hypothesis because 
we haven't studied it, But if we would 
ban the sale of new semi-automatics like 
the one that the long island railroad 
shooter did not have in a closet but was 
bought very recently just for this 
purpose, then I think we start really 
working on the right end of this.

Moderator:
O.K. well, Mr Sherman, Ms Harrel, Mr 
Matoya, and Chief Greenburg and Harmon 
thank you all for joining us.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to [h--p] at [anon.penet.fi.]
Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized,
and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.
Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to [a--m--n] at [anon.penet.fi.]